Small Podcasts Have A Shot At Podcast Advertising

This transcript has been edited.

[00:00:15] Heather Osgood: Hello and welcome to the podcast advertising playbook. I am your host, Heather Osgood, and Dave Hanley is joining me today on the program. Dave Henley is the Chief Revenue Officer at Libsyn's Advertisecast. Welcome to the show. 

[00:00:28] Dave Hanley: Thanks so much, Heather; happy to be here.

[00:00:30] Heather Osgood: Dave, I will never forget when I walked into my first Podcast Movement and saw the Advertisecast booth piled with fake dollar bills.

[00:00:51] Heather Osgood: And I was like, "What are they doing? Advertisecast is so cool." I know we started our companies at similar times. So what made you guys decide to get into the industry? 

[00:01:04] Dave Hanley: Yeah, it's funny that you remember that. At the first Podcast Movement, I went to, Trevor, the Co-Founder of Advertisecast, showed up and said, "I got this really great idea to attract podcasts to the booth." And he opened up this briefcase, and there's so much fake money. So I thought it was pretty funny, and many people came over and joked around. It was an excellent ice breaker. 

[00:01:32] Dave Hanley: But, I guess getting back to what got me into this industry and what got Trevor into the industry is, frankly, both he and I had exactly zero years of media experience before getting into this space. And what really got us interested as both of us were just huge podcast consumers.

[00:01:49] Dave Hanley: I have a background in enterprise software in the "very exciting" insurance and risk management industry. I sold the company in 2016 and had to think about what I wanted to do next.

[00:02:07] Dave Hanley: So I took a little time off, and I just kept getting up every morning, listening to podcasts. I started to hear some ads, and the more I listened, the more ads I heard. So this is obviously, something that's picking up some steam.

[00:02:24] Dave Hanley: When I started researching, I found that the industry was highly fragmented. There were some networks, but then there were all kinds of independent creators just creating a great show, and maybe they'd get some advertisers knocking on their door. One night, I woke up, and wrote down on a little piece of paper beside my bed - a marketplace for advertisers to connect with podcasters. The following day, I Googled it and saw someone was already doing it. The website was called Advertisecast.

[00:02:57] Dave Hanley: So I cold emailed Trevor and said, "Hey, what do you know, what are you up to? I love what you guys are doing. Tell me about the business." And it turns out he had just gotten started. And at the time, there was a ton of demand from the podcast side. 

[00:03:13] Dave Hanley: On the flip side, many advertisers were landing on the site, signing up, but not really taking things to the next level and actually doing buys. The more I talked with Trevor, the more it became evident that we needed to educate the advertisers because it was new. This was in 2017, and even today, you get a lot of people reaching out. They have never done podcast advertising. 

[00:03:54] Dave Hanley: Once we started building a sales team and educating brands and agencies about what ad copy works best and what frequency they should book on. And all those things surrounding podcast advertising, the business really started to take off. Trevor has a background in building online businesses. Our developer/architect/technical Jack-of-all-trades, Scott, and Trevor created the platform with the concept that it would be a self-serve marketplace. But what was interesting is once we found that we needed to educate and go out to the market and evangelize podcast advertising, we stripped back some of the self-serve functionality.

[00:04:56] Dave Hanley: And the view that we have at least, going forward into the future, is the self-serve capabilities are still there. And they're used by some folks in our platform. So there'll be more demand for that in the future where someone's going to come in and say, "Hey, it's great talking to somebody, getting an Excel sheet with all your roster on it and all that type of thing, but I'd rather go into the system, pick the available inventory, and set a campaign in motion by myself. So that's the long-term vision for where we think the industry's going.

[00:05:23] Heather Osgood: That's such a great observation. When I saw Advertisecast, having a sales background myself and having conversations with advertisers, they didn't know what to do. And I knew they would be reluctant to go and use a self-service model because they didn't know what they were buying. 

[00:05:44] Heather Osgood: When we look at the evolution of sales, salespeople used to be the knowledge gatekeepers. They had all of the information that someone needed. And so you worked with a salesperson because you needed to get educated. And now, with so much information online, we don't need salespeople as much. So it's more about relationship building and helping with good questions. So asking that buyer a good question that maybe is thought-provoking, as opposed to "Oh, hey, here I have all this information." 

[00:06:19] Heather Osgood: Now saying all of that. In podcast advertising, salespeople are still knowledge gatekeepers because there isn't necessarily a central repository for all of this knowledge and all of these best practices. And because it is such a new platform or a new medium, and because there are so many different options. 

[00:06:55] Heather Osgood: And as the industry continues. I think that it's going to continue to be necessary, right? Because it's not, we're not set in stone. You and I know, probably better than most, that the industry will continue to change.

[00:07:09] Heather Osgood: Now, I'm sure we'll get to a place where there is enough consistency where buyers can go onto platforms and use self-service options. We all are excited to get to a place where more of that can happen.

[00:07:26] Dave Hanley: Yeah, today, there is a lot of information and data sales have to help people interpret the industry. When we started, there were no IAB-certified hosting platforms, and I think people's heads would spin as we tried to explain everything.

[00:07:51] Dave Hanley: So it's come so far, but I think the fragmented nature of the space still makes it difficult. What do I buy? Well, you buy a baked-in host-read ad unit. Here's how it's sold, and here's what you get.

[00:08:11] Dave Hanley: Now, there are baked-in and dynamic spots, but the questions are, "How are you doing dynamic ad insertion? Is it episodic, capped, or the number of days? The entire catalog or back catalog? Is it a producer spot that's run of network? There are all kinds of different options.

[00:08:28] Dave Hanley: I think the approach that we take is not really selling inventory. It's trying to figure out what your advertiser is trying to do. What are their objectives? And then put together a solution for them to say, "Hey, if you're looking to reach this audience, here's the best way to do that."

[00:08:47] Dave Hanley: It might be a combination of different ad units. So it might be host-reads with a run of network to support that. Or it might be a campaign geo-targeted across a bunch of shows. The key is having those conversations, figuring out what your customer is trying to do, and putting something on the table for them to consider. 

[00:09:07] Heather Osgood: Yeah, advertisers must start with a goal. What are some of the plans that you would recommend an advertiser have when they come into an ad campaign? 

[00:09:33] Dave Hanley: With direct response campaigns, customer acquisition costs are basics and driving website visits and conversions. We have lots of advertisers in that type of mode. But more and more, we are talking to brands looking to be a more top of the funnel.

[00:10:09] Dave Hanley: They want to get their message out there uniquely. In a way that stands out from the crowd of typical radio or broadcast television, or something of that nature. And what we have in the podcast world is unique because the audience is often tough to reach on other platforms. People subscribe to ad-free streaming services instead of watching TV and listening to the radio. So, the brands aim to reach this very desirable audience in a unique way that stands out from their competition, which we can do in podcasting.

[00:10:51] Heather Osgood: Yeah, absolutely. Are you seeing an increase in brand advertising as opposed to direct response? 

[00:10:57] Dave Hanley: Definitely, we are. I would say it's a push for us internally. Obviously, part of what you need to get into the brand advertising space is having enough to scale where you can make it worth their while.

[00:11:10] Dave Hanley: So, speaking with one of the fellows on the Libsyn board, he was the previous president or CEO of the IAB. And I was chatting with him the other day. And we were talking about this brand business and how podcast networks and sellers can crack that nut. And one of the things he said is that even at the scale that some large podcast networks are at today, it's still not that interesting to large brand advertisers. 

[00:11:39] Dave Hanley: So doing things like reach extension and getting creative with those campaigns is even done at the more extensive network level.

[00:11:47] Dave Hanley: So, as we've continued to grow, over the years. And now that we're part of Libsyn, we are getting to that point where we have enough scale to make it interesting for those larger brands. So that's really a big push for us. For example, suppose you think about a large podcast with a couple million downloads a month. In that case, that is still not large when you consider some of the other advertising opportunities that big brands are looking at in traditional media.

[00:12:13] Dave Hanley: Hearing from Patrick, our board member, it was interesting for me to go; okay, when you think about it from that perspective, it makes sense that it's hard to get the attention of those bigger brands and agencies that are doing those kinds of buys.

[00:12:31] Heather Osgood: That is such a great perspective. We're so excited about this industry, and then when we lift our heads up and look around and go, oh, we're still pretty small. We all feel so much more significant because we are more prominent as an industry than we used to be four or five years ago. But, we're still small in comparison to other advertising platforms. 

[00:12:55] Dave Hanley: What hit it home for me was, a year or two ago, we had done business with a regional auto dealership group, and we ran geo-targeted, run of network campaigns. And I thought to myself, "I wonder what a regional car dealership spends annually on advertising, just all channels?" I think the number was $12 billion a year. So I'm going well; that makes us feel really small. Just that one segment is spending that much on media annually. 

[00:13:40] Heather Osgood: One thing Advertisecast does is publish its average CPMs. So what made you guys decide to make the decision to do that, and maybe how you're seeing things move around or trend? 

[00:14:17] Dave Hanley: When we became part of Libsyn, we really had this focus of bringing some of that stuff into the light of day. What's really difficult is when you look at the numbers for a show, you know, Hey, what are the download numbers? What are the catalog numbers? What are the per-episode numbers? All that type of thing. And it can be really confusing. So we want it to shed some light. And this is one of the first initiatives that we've taken. We want to be as transparent as we can with what's going on in the podcast advertising business.

[00:14:48] Dave Hanley: How do genres stack up in terms of price and demand, rates, and that type of thing. And this was actually an idea that Brad, our CEO, brought up.

[00:15:05] Dave Hanley: Certain times a year, there's different demand.

With higher demand, prices go up. Then lower demand, prices go down. So advertisers can look at it and say, "Hey, this is a good time of year to find some inventory. I'm not competing against a million other advertisers; that might be an exciting way for me to dip my toe in the water.

[00:15:32] Dave Hanley: So I think it's all about transparency for us. We just love helping people navigate podcast advertising and figuring out what's going on without having to dig into too many numbers and things that are not brought to the surface. 

[00:15:50] Heather Osgood: One of the big questions that I get asked so often is what kind of CPMs should you pay? Should you spend $15, $30, or $50? And it's really nice to say, "Well, there is this report from Advertisecast, and this is what we see at True Native Media." Thousands of different campaigns are being run. So it gives an excellent average. 

[00:16:14] Heather Osgood: Do you think it makes sense to pay more or less than the average? When should an advertiser be comfortable paying maybe a $50 CPM because, correct me if I'm wrong, the CPM you've been reporting is generally around the $23 range?

[00:16:30] Dave Hanley: Yeah. We've seen it range from $23 to $25. But really, if you looked at the raw data feeding those numbers, it's all over the place. I was reading genre-specific information today when we were talking about that this morning. Some are low twenties or high teens that may be in less demand. Maybe an audience that doesn't have a wide array of advertisers going after that audience today.

[00:16:57] Dave Hanley: Certain audiences are more desired by brands. For example, females 25 to 45 years old are a highly desirable audience because often, they're household spenders and decision-makers.

[00:17:12] Dave Hanley: Brands often try to pursue that audience. However, in B2B business and technology genres, advertisers are thinking, "Hey, if I advertise on this show and we drive some business out of it, that will ROI significantly."So maybe a $40, $45, or $50 CPM is not significant.

[00:17:55] Dave Hanley: The market ebbs and flows with those different inputs, so the rates fluctuate. You might have specific times a year where you've got extra inventory. You're willing to sharpen your pencil and do a little more of a deal.

[00:18:11] Dave Hanley: And then there are other times a year, November and December, where you'll probably be charging a standard rate on most inventory because there's so much demand. 

[00:18:20] Heather Osgood: Right. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about Advertisecast. What is a marketplace? 

[00:19:19] Dave Hanley: Advertisers go into the marketplace and browse through the different inventory and look at the shows on the platform.

[00:19:48] Dave Hanley: We've got about 2,500 shows. We typically recommend that first-time advertisers connect with somebody on our sales team to help them navigate the process of putting a campaign in place. When you go to a marketplace like ours, you can say, "Hey, I'm looking for shows that reach a business audience, and you can search for specific terms.

[00:20:14] Dave Hanley: You can filter by specific demographics to say male, female, age, and categories. But we will get, potentially, dozens or hundreds of podcasts by the time you slice and dice all of that. So what our team can really help with is saying, "Hey, what are your objectives?"

[00:20:34] Dave Hanley: "What are you trying to do?" Knowing the inventory inside out, we can put a campaign together for that first-time advertiser. Now for somebody who wants to be self-sufficient and do it themselves, after that first campaign, we'd say, "Hey, you know how this all works now. Once you go through that process with our team, we can onboard you into the platform so that you can actually do that yourself." Selecting inventory, setting up a campaign, and managing it through the system. So we've got a unique concept where you have an advertiser dashboard.

[00:21:20] Dave Hanley: The advertiser can run their own campaigns. See what's going on. They get real-time access to air checks delivered to them through the system. All the payment information, invoicing, reporting, and stuff happens through the platform.

[00:21:33] Dave Hanley: And then quite a few customers say they would rather have our team run the campaigns and manage everything behind the scenes. And we're happy to do that with no premium charge. So that's just part of the service that we have.

[00:21:48] Heather Osgood: That's great. So, how long does it take on the marketplace if somebody wants to get a campaign started? 

[00:22:18] Dave Hanley: If they have all of their ducks in a row - ad copy, promo codes, or landing pages, we generally say, within seven to ten days in the system if the inventory is available. Again, assuming you've got everything ready to go. Now, if somebody is coming in fresh, we want to help create ad copy, etc., we recommend more lead time. But the beauty of having the marketplace platform is that you are, essentially, working directly with the podcasters through the system.

[00:23:02] Dave Hanley: So if you put in an order with five shows, you collaborate with those creators in the system. You can ask/answer questions through the platform. And it just helps cut out many problematic workflows and the host-read podcast process. 

[00:23:23] Heather Osgood: Yeah, absolutely. So tell me, in terms of putting together a campaign, do you feel like there are some best practices that you recommend?

[00:23:40] Dave Hanley: I listened to the episode you did with Glenn from Adopter Media a few weeks ago. And I mean, that is pretty much the philosophy.

[00:23:53] Dave Hanley: And I think you share a lot of these same thoughts in terms of best practices is, if you're trying to promote a finance app, you don't necessarily just look at finance shows because people that are listening to those shows, they're probably pretty savvy.

[00:24:11] Dave Hanley: Those are the ones that are creating their own spreadsheets to manage all of their investments. Your brand is probably not going to get much traction with them. So think about where that audience is, which may not necessarily be contextually relevant on those shows.

[00:24:29] Dave Hanley: The biggest hurdle for first-time advertisers is understanding who they are trying to reach. What are they consuming out there?

[00:24:43] Dave Hanley: People that need our finance app are not just consuming financial content. They're probably thinking about what was on The Bachelor last night or the basketball game last week. And in terms of getting started, we're very much advocates of starting with small to mid-size podcasts.

[00:25:02] Dave Hanley: We built our business on working with shows years ago that were 10,000 to 50,000 downloads per episode because we found those shows had highly engaged audiences. You can get in at a very reasonable cost of entry. A few hundred to maybe a thousand or a few thousand dollars with some frequency. We always talk about frequency relative to how much consideration is involved with a purchase.

[00:25:31] Dave Hanley: If you're looking at a direct response campaign. So if it's an expensive product that you need to research and get in there and learn all about, you probably want to have a higher frequency. Suppose it's something that's a little bit less consideration. In that case, you can deal with a little lower frequency, which could be anywhere from the low side of three to four, or the high side of ten to twelve episode frequency.

[00:25:55] Dave Hanley: Something we think about. And, I always tell people you can have this one show with a hundred thousand downloads per episode. Or you can have ten shows at 10,000 downloads per episode; where will I slam my money down? It's definitely going to be on the latter. It will be on those ten shows at 10,000 instead of the one at a hundred thousand. Because we've run the numbers and seen those smaller shows perform. In aggregate, you're spreading your risk around, and some will perform really well. Some of them might not. But on average, I think that's going to perform better. And the challenge is that 10 shows are a lot of work as opposed to buying one show for a hundred thousand.

[00:26:47] Dave Hanley: And that's our focus, taking that friction out of the process so that somebody can say, "Hey, we want to run that kind of buy across those ten shows." Several months ago, we acquired a company called PodGo, and their focus is host-read ads for small podcasts. The podcast downloads are sub 5,000 or sub 10,000 downloads per episode. This is our emerging podcast bundle that allows brand-safe host-reads on vetted shows with known demographics.

[00:27:28] Dave Hanley: But it's not across ten shows, it's across fifty shows, or a hundred shows because we see that as an interesting way to go to market. We can offer a competitive rate. A lot of those shows are keen on working with brands. They're just trying to get their feet wet and do some ad-reads to get those relationships going and growing.

[00:27:47] Dave Hanley: And we're seeing some great things already in that side of our business, and we're looking forward to growing that in the future. And I see that as an exciting way for brands to tap into audiences that aren't saturated with ads already because they might be the only advertiser on the podcast or one of two.

[00:28:06] Heather Osgood: Yeah. I think you brought up a couple of excellent points there. You mentioned ad saturation, and we're seeing that more and more. The other thing that I find fascinating is that top-performing podcasts get booked out. So if you have a show that is a finance podcast, for instance or a female lifestyle podcast, chances are they will be sold out for the year.

[00:28:29] Heather Osgood: So if you want to get into the space, you might come and say, "Oh, I really want to be on this podcast." But they might not have any availability. So I think looking at that kind of secondary show is an excellent place to get in. And the other thing that you mentioned that is really spot on is the comparison between one podcast at a hundred thousand impressions or downloads, or ten, at 10,000 downloads. Of course, we know not every podcast will work for every advertiser, and a big part is testing.

[00:29:04] Heather Osgood: And if you have ten shows, then you can say, gosh, maybe this size audience, this demographic, this genre, like how the ad was delivered, all of those different components work together to create outstanding results on this show. But you would have thought this one would have converted, and it didn't.

[00:29:20] Heather Osgood: One of the biggest mistakes that advertisers can make is advertising on too few podcasts at a time because it doesn't give you the information you need to learn and then scale. 

[00:29:34] Dave Hanley: Yeah, that initial campaign objective should not always be to max out performance.

[00:29:57] Dave Hanley: It should be testing some of those theories to see what data you get back then; let's double down on the learnings from a pure performance perspective. One of the biggest mistakes is not investing enough in the testing.

[00:30:29] Dave Hanley: How many times, Heather, have you had the conversation where somebody goes and advertises on one, two, or three shows, and they go, "Well, podcast advertising didn't work for us." There are hundreds of thousands of other shows out there that are potentially available for you to partner with.

[00:30:47] Heather Osgood: That happens all the time, unfortunately. And we try to recommend that they advertise on enough shows. Yeah. All right, so let's pivot the conversation a little bit. I know we've been talking about advertising. I would love to talk a little bit more about how podcasters can leverage Advertisecast.

[00:31:04] Heather Osgood: I have conversations with podcasters all the time who are like, "Gosh, my show isn't big enough, but I really want ads." And I always recommend that podcasters list their shows on Advertisecast because it seems like a straightforward way to get your podcast out in front of potential advertisers.

[00:31:24] Heather Osgood: It's been my experience that most representation firms are looking for around 10,000 downloads per episode. I know some of them can go down to 5,000. But it sounds like there is space for smaller podcasters to find opportunities with your company.

[00:31:50] Dave Hanley: Yeah, definitely. There are two ways that Advertisecas. Number one is we have some exclusive shows that we represent. This is the only place you can buy this show because we're the sole representative of the show, and it's on our marketplace.

[00:32:11] Dave Hanley: But that's a small subset of our content. Generally, we bring shows through our marketplace as non-exclusive before transitioning them to exclusive. We want to work with them a little bit, see how the show collaborates with our team, how they are to work with, and that type of thing.

[00:32:34] Dave Hanley: But literally any podcasts can go in and add their listing to Advertisecast as a non-exclusive marketplace podcast. Previously before PodGo joined our team, it was 5,000 downloads per episode minimum. Our PodGo acquisition reduced the downloads to 200 per episode as we're bundling smaller shows for the advertisers. We're doing a lot of that legwork for them of vetting the content, looking at the demographics, and all that stuff that really takes that friction out of play. So that if somebody wants to reach that audience, we can provide that across many shows.

[00:33:42] Dave Hanley: Since we've opened that up, we have received a ton of excitement from podcasters that previously might've shown up on advertisecast.com, put in their listing, and it said, "Sorry, you're only at 3,000, and the minimum is 5,000 downloads." Our thought is that we want as many shows as possible to come through, graduate up to the 5,000, or 10,000 an episode level, to partake in bigger campaigns and brand relationships. And our model is relatively straightforward, and there's no cost to you. So the system gets you all set up. We recommend your CPM rates, depending on the size, the genre, and things like that. And then whatever advertisements come your way, we keep 30%, and you get 70%.

[00:34:34] Dave Hanley: What's great about our system, too, is that it automates many workflows. So just in terms of the calendar, the scheduling, the air checks, and payouts. So you literally put in your PayPal or ACH information, and boom, you get paid out directly from the system.

[00:34:49] Dave Hanley: There's no, checks and invoicing and all that fun stuff that nobody really likes to do. So we try to cut all that out through technology. That's great. 

[00:34:57] Heather Osgood: Very, very cool. And I am happy to hear that you are taking on smaller shows because I think there really needs to be a place, and it is a lot of work to combine all the shows and work with them.

[00:35:09] Heather Osgood: So, do you guys do programmatic ads? Like announcer-read ads, or are you all host-read endorsements?

[00:35:16] Dave Hanley: So we have some relationships. We have access to some programmatic platforms to execute those types of campaigns on behalf of those brands who want to do that. This is great because we can fill that gap between your typical national advertisers and those needs.

[00:35:46] Dave Hanley: And that's been a growing segment for us. Those regional or targeted campaigns where it's more of a produced ad format, run of network type of campaign. So that's something that we do a little bit of. I'm happy to say that Libsyn is working on an automated advertising platform, more for the publisher side. So for the 75,000 shows hosted on the Libsyn platform, we will open up capabilities for them to monetize based on programmatic or automated advertising from brands all over the place. This is an excellent solution for somebody who may be too small for host-read ads or doesn't want to do host-read ads and just wants to have those types of produced ads inserted into their content.

[00:36:36] Dave Hanley: So that's coming down the line soon. 

[00:36:40] Heather Osgood: And you don't have to host your show on Libsyn to be on Advertisecast, correct? 

[00:36:47] Dave Hanley: Correct. So when we became part of Libsyn, one of the things that we were super excited to hear about from the Libsyn management team because it was really in line with how we look at the industry is that we really want what's best for the podcaster. So if somebody hosted on a Megaphone, Podbean, or Buzzsprout and wants to monetize, we're great with that. As long as it's one of the major platforms and it's IAB certified. We're platform agnostic. Indeed, we love shows to be hosted on Libsyn.

[00:37:21] Dave Hanley: And we've got lots of shows that we work with today on Libsyn. But we really are, in that respect, platform-agnostic we'll work with creators on whatever platform works best. 

[00:37:32] Heather Osgood: Great. So what I hear you saying then is essentially starting at 200 downloads an episode, podcasters can get on to Libsyn.

[00:37:41] Heather Osgood: And then obviously they're going to grow up through the ranks when you get into that 5,000, 10,000 plus you're probably going to be making quite a bit more. And then the next level would be the representation and exclusive representation with Advertisecast. And you even get to a place where you're doing guarantees potentially for podcasters, right?

[00:38:01] Heather Osgood: Isn't that something you guys offer? 

[00:38:03] Dave Hanley: Yeah, I couldn't have said it better, Heather. That progression is the roadmap we're looking to bring podcast creators through. And, we've been fortunate enough over the last couple of years to work with some really great shows where after we work with them on an exclusive basis and do a really great job, bringing them some ad campaigns and filling their show really well.

[00:38:23] Dave Hanley: We want to build that even closer relationship where we say, "Hey, look, we're going to give you this advance on your ad deals." And that really shows how committed we are to doing a great job for them. And we have a few of those in place today.

[00:38:37] Heather Osgood: Very cool. Dave, thank you so much for coming to the show. It's been great chatting with you. Suppose either a podcaster or an advertiser is interested in working with the Advertisecast. Where's the best place for them to go? 

[00:38:48] Dave Hanley: Contact me at dave@advertisecast.com.

[00:38:56] Dave Hanley: If your show falls into the category of our emerging podcasts. A couple hundred to a few thousand downloads per episode, you can reach out to david@advertisedcast.com. David Ehrlich is the guy who heads up that division of our business.

[00:39:14] Dave Hanley: So it's Dave or David at advertise.com. And then obviously, you just go to the website and check us out. 

[00:39:20] Heather Osgood: Terrific. Thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you for listening. We appreciate you being here. I hope this episode has been full of great information about how you can take advantage of podcast advertising.

[00:39:33] Heather Osgood: And if you'd like to learn more about podcast advertising, you can go to truenativemedia.com to download our free guide to get started with podcast ads. So have a great day, and we'll catch you next time.