How Advertising Agency, Veritone One, Leverages Dynamic Ad Insertion

[00:00:30]Heather Osgood: [00:00:30] Hello and welcome to the podcast advertising playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood. And today on the show, I am thrilled to have Bart Roselli, the SVP Of Strategy from Veritone One. Veritone One is an agency that True Native Media has been working with for quite a long time. Actually, one of the first agencies we worked with, and I'm so excited to have Bart on the program today. We have wanted [00:01:00] Veritone One on the show for a while, just because their impact in the industry has been so great.

[00:01:05] And we're going to be talking about one of my favorite topics, which you all will know if you have listened to any of my content. And that is dynamic ad insertion. Welcome to the show; thanks so much for being with us today, Bart.

[00:01:20] Bart Roselli: [00:01:20] Thank you, Heather, a pleasure to be here and, uh, excited to dive into the conversation.

[00:01:25] Heather Osgood: [00:01:25] Excellent. Excellent. So I know to spend some time talking about working with an agency, and we're definitely gonna hit that. It's toward the end of the conversation, but I wanted to start by talking about dynamic ad insertion. And if you're listening to the show and you're unfamiliar with what dynamic ad insertion is.

[00:01:43] Dynamic ad insertion gives you the capability to insert ads into both your current as well as your back catalog episodes. So as a podcaster or an advertiser, you essentially have the capacity to reach a full listenership of the audience within a [00:02:00] specified period of time. So that might be a two-week period or four-week period, whatever it is that you have decided, okay.

[00:02:06] Um, so that's the foundation of dynamic ad insertion. And I'm curious, Bart, from your perspective because dynamic ad insertion is a little newer. And when I say a little newer, I always wonder what the actual definition is. Like, you've been doing it for several years now, but from your perspective, Can you tell us, I guess, what you see as being the pros and cons of dynamic ad insertion, as it applies specifically from an advertising perspective.

Bart Roselli: [00:02:41] Sure. And yeah, it's funny to always think about, is it new? Because it's not, but I think it's on a more prominent display because you have the Midrolls and the iHearts that now operate a hundred percent and dynamic ad insertion. So just by the organic nature of that evolution, it's [00:03:00] becoming more prevalent out in the space.

[00:03:01] However, we've grown up with podcasts being primarily embedded or in perpetuity-based ads, which are extremely beneficial for clients. However, there's a lot of beneficial ways to use dynamic ad insertion. It just really depends on the goal for the account. So one of the first things that kind of comes to mind is, you know, some clients have time-sensitive offers.

[00:03:21] And if an offer has to sit out there at some form of perpetuity or, you know, over 90 plus days if it's truncated to only, you know, an expired, a potential timeframe, well then having an ad set out there isn't entirely beneficial for the client. It's not necessarily a negative thing, but this is something where you can really utilize it, similar to streaming and in terms of structuring that ecosystem, understanding what impression you're going to drive, maybe even putting specifics around how much you want to be weighted in the front half versus the back half of the week. So it gives you a little more control over when the impressions are being heard for your brand.

[00:03:57] And that works great with time-sensitive [00:04:00] promotions, especially when you get towards the back half of the year, and we have Black Friday, Cyber Monday stuff. So that's when dynamic really becomes incredibly powerful from that side. 

[00:04:09] But also I think it, it also opens the door for campaigns and clients to dive into bigger shows that maybe you couldn't afford and you're buying, and you're just dipping your toe in the water and buying back catalog just to get a pulse. Like, is this the right audience before I invest six figures, you know, over a longer timeframe. So there's a lot of different, beneficial ways that, you know, and especially in the direct response e-commerce space, you can utilize it to your advantage. But, still, you also have to understand the total ecosystem you're buying is? What is the share of voice you're purchasing? Because if you don't understand that, you're kind of throwing darts at a wall and hoping that you're hitting enough people that will create the necessary engagement or even frequency to engage with your brand.

[00:04:55] Heather Osgood: [00:04:55] Okay. Yeah. I'm thrilled that you brought up share voice because I don't [00:05:00] think that that gets talked about often enough. I know the conversations that I'm in; Veritone One might be one of the only companies asking about voice share. And so, uh, can you tell us exactly what you mean by share of voice?

[00:05:16] Bart Roselli: [00:05:16] Sure. And, uh, definitely, I've heard a couple of different ways of how it's described. Sometimes people think of the shared voice you're talking about; hey, there are four ads in a podcast you're buying when you have a 25% share of voice. Yeah. If it's once a week and, you know, podcasts from that perspective. Sure, you could call that because you're basically embedded in the thing. There are only four ads, but share voice for dynamic is about how many impressions are in that week and how many impressions are you purchasing of that total ecosystem? So they almost correlate it back to radio is like AQH with the whole little, I mean, not directly aligned, but similar in that fashion. So it's understanding, okay if there are a million impressions weekly for this show.

[00:06:00] [00:05:59] Then, if I'm buying 200,000 impressions, I'm intuiting a 20% share of voice that I'm purchasing. So I'm hitting one out of every five potential people of that audience and understanding how that shared voice delegated across the week. You don't want it all happening on Monday. So there's that control element of dynamic insertion is extremely valuable.

[00:06:22] You just have to make sure you're having those conversations to make sure that. You're buying the right share of voice, and you understand what the ecosystem is. And then you also understand how do you want to the best of the network's ability to deploy those impressions? Is it evenly? Is it more weighted to Monday through Friday versus the weekend?

[00:06:38] And that's really where the power of dynamic insertion comes into play because it gives you a more controlled ecosystem.

[00:06:44] Yeah, 

[00:06:44] Heather Osgood: [00:06:44] absolutely. Yeah. And just to reiterate, um, share a voice. You really don't want a hundred percent share of voice, right? Because you don't want all of those ad impressions. And I think it's such an important question because you [00:07:00] could be buying a hundred percent of those, right. This means like, what if a podcast had a pre-roll, a mid-roll, and a post-roll, and let's say they're getting a hundred thousand downloads per week.

[00:07:14] And they say, okay, we're going to sell you 300,000 impressions. That means you're getting three ads in every episode. So you have to be really, really. I think awareness of what that is. I haven't personally run into many people selling above, like, you know, a 25% share of voice I think is very common.

[00:07:37] But, um, I do think you have to be very aware. And what I see is that the complexity of dynamic ad insertion is much greater. So that brings with it a lot of opportunities, but it also brings challenges with it. And 

[00:07:56] Bart Roselli: [00:07:56] what would you say are some of the challenges that you face with [00:08:00] dynamic insertion?

[00:08:02] Sure. I mean, I think knowledge is always the key thing. Understanding the framework of what you're buying is and what each network does or shows is different. So how some networks stitch in ads versus others? One thing is you could have a host read dynamic ad insertion. You could also have a producer read.

[00:08:22] So I would say the biggest thing with dynamic ad insertion is a long list of questions and things you need to truly understand before you purchase something so that you're not giving the show a, you know, developing a false negative. That could be wrong. or just be because you didn't check boxes two, three, and four on the list in terms of what you're buying.

[00:08:44] So to me, it's a little bit more research and understanding and potential growth of the show and how it's deployed, but also how the ads are stitched in at what points are they stitched in. I mean, that's when you can really start to get really granular. [00:09:00] we dive into a lot of that stuff because dynamic ad insertion can tend to be softer on a performance response basis. Still, it's really about how you set up the ecosystem and that structure to super-serve whatever that campaign's needs are. And look, there's going to be rationale to buy more than, you know, 30, 40, 50% in some cases, it just depends on the show, the content, what you're trying to get across versus more of an evergreen type of strategy.

[00:09:28] Heather Osgood: [00:09:28] right. Right. Absolutely. And embedded ads are baked in ads have really been the cornerstone, I would say, especially probably of the direct response ad industry and podcasting. A long time. And part of the reason for sure is that you've got a really nice, strong, long tail, right? Like you're getting, as you mentioned at the beginning, ads in perpetuity, which that doesn't typically happen. You don't typically get to pay for 30 days worth of ads and then maybe [00:10:00] get, you know, three or four months' worth, right? Like

[00:10:03] Bart Roselli: [00:10:03] Yeah.

[00:10:03] Heather Osgood: [00:10:03] Depending on how that episode went that your ad was inserted in. If they had a trendy guest or something happened to make that episode get more downloads, you could really see a lot of, you know, impressions being delivered that you're not paying for.

[00:10:21] Or you continue to see results that can trickle in. Whereas when we're looking at dynamic insertion, it is time-bound, right, as we mentioned. So if you're going to run from, but say, November 1st through November 30th, that's the only time your ad is going to be heard. It's not going to be heard in January.

[00:10:38] Um, and so I think one of the real challenges is that embedded ads have been so successful. That it's not that I, because one of the questions I get, certainly, and I'm sure you get the question all the time too, is, are dynamic ads as effective as embedded ads. And my answer is always well, they're just [00:11:00] different.

[00:11:00] It's not necessarily that one is so much better than the other. But, um, they're they are different. And so it's approaching the strategy differently. But I'm curious, do you find that you're getting many advertisers that give pushback to dynamic ad insertion because they're so used to maybe the results that they saw with embedded?

[00:11:24] Bart Roselli: [00:11:24] I wouldn't say pushback. I would say there's more inquisition or questions like, okay, how does this really work? What are the pros and cons? Um, cause there are certain disadvantages you just touched on, which is the ad doesn't live indefinitely, uh, for long periods of time. And while embedded that used to be on for years now, they're more truncated from three to six months.

[00:11:46] Which is still incredibly valuable. If you're buying a show and it's 50,000 downloads, you have the potential for your brands to be heard after those 50,000, if it exceeds it, whether it's gas or just organic show growth, [00:12:00] and that ties right back into performance. So that's why the direct response industry loves it and embedded is not going away.

[00:12:06] Like it's always going to be there. It's just going to be a different percentage of the portfolio for podcasts; just as networks become more acclimated, there's more focus on monetization of shows, talent. Et cetera, but embedded has always been the core foundation, always going to be extremely strong, you know, and unless it depends on the certain campaign and their goals, yeah, embedded will probably make it still be higher consideration dynamic. If you just look at a top-level macro level. But for every client, there are ones that may not even make sense for embedded because of time sensitivity, uh, seasonality of accounts, huge promotional pushes that clients do, and they don't want to have mixed messaging sitting out there that doesn't align with what's actually truly accurate given their advent calendar.

[00:12:56] Heather Osgood: [00:12:56] Yeah. Obviously, when we're looking at [00:13:00], advertising reach and frequency are the two big pieces that we're going to consider, right? How many people are we reaching, and how many times are we reaching that same person with the same message. And I'm curious if you think that dynamic insertion could or potentially should outperform embedded simply because of that frequency piece.

[00:13:24] When I think about embedded ad reads, one of the challenges that we, as an industry, the face is that. If I'm, let's say I'm a show that gets a hundred thousand downloads per episode, and I've got an ad that's coming out today. It's going to take at least 30 days to get to those a hundred thousand downloads and potentially even maybe a little longer, depending on how that episode performed.

[00:13:49] So it's a very slow-moving medium. And so if you figure you've got one ad that came out today, it's going to take 30 days, maybe, you know, you've got an ad per week even, [00:14:00] but it's going to take a while to get that frequency out there. And it seems that with dynamic, we should be hitting that frequency piece much faster, but it still isn't performing and embedded.

[00:14:14] And so that, that for me is always a bit of a head-scratcher because I feel that if we're getting the frequency out there and the frequency is up, Is it that the reach is being diminished with dynamic insertion. So instead of reaching a hundred thousand people, are we only reaching 10,000 people 10 times. Um, so what are your thoughts about reach and frequency as it applies to dynamic?

[00:14:40] Bart Roselli: [00:14:40] Yeah. I mean, we know because we all come from traditional media channels, so we know that everybody wants things to be standardized. And I think the IAB has done a great job with moving to those 2.0, 2.0 plus standardization of what a download is because we're still looking at apples, oranges, and grapefruits from show to show, network to network.

[00:14:58] So. Reach and [00:15:00] frequency can really only be really adjusted unless you have similar statistics and standardization from that side. But if you look at it on an individual show basis, Can tell you, like, we look at shows different, like to us like shows or their own ecosystem. So how one show operates, it's not how another one is, even if they're both dynamic or if they're both embedded.

[00:15:19] So data obviously does a talking, um, look, we're, we'll go where the performance is. And the data tells us, and there's been plenty of times where we have been pleasantly surprised with how fast things have picked up and also surprised when things haven't hit fast as we want it. But, you know, in the end, it really depends on what the client's goals are, how fast are they looking for that return?

[00:15:41] But it's really about setting expectations because dynamic is essentially the inverse to embedded in terms of, do you want expediency to, in terms of your results versus maximizing efficiency, and that just comes down to costs valuation. And what makes the most sense to reverse [00:16:00] engineer into a client-specific KPI because what you do for a mortgage company, what you do for an eCommerce company, can be very different in terms of volume of leads act active acquisitions versus just sheer volume.

[00:16:13] Yup.

[00:16:14] Heather Osgood: [00:16:14] right, right. I think that makes total sense. And I think, I think you're, you know, certainly right across the board. I know you mentioned that you really feel like embedded will always be a piece of the pie. Do you see that most shows are selling the current catalog as embedded and back catalog as dynamic, or where do you see that embedded piece kind of hanging around? 

[00:16:42] Bart Roselli: [00:16:42] I think the dynamic percentage has increased year over year, just to, like we talked about with the key networks, really starting to amp up and restructure how they build their platforms. Also, for programmatic-based targeting and things like that that you see with, you know, Megaphone, et cetera out there.

[00:16:58] So it kind of [00:17:00] varies, but the newer shows usually start with an embedded ad cause they don't have numbers yet. Right. So the whole thing is you want to limit your numbers or eliminate it until you create some supply and demand and just interest in your show. And as you know, other shows can take off from zero to a hundred thousand, like super-fast, and other ones take a little bit longer. It just depends on the genre, the time, the relevance. I think there are some shows over the past year that really blew up in terms of self-help and stuff like that that makes logical sense, given everything that's been going on.

[00:17:33] Um, but I think embedded is going to play a strong part, at least initially for those initial shows that are trying to build an audience, but also for shows that just they care about that one-to-one connection with our audience. So that's not to say dynamic ad insertion doesn't do that. It's just when the show hits a certain inflection point, there are different tactics you can deploy from both a sales perspective but also an advertising buying perspective where you can, you know, dip your toe [00:18:00] in the water with back catalog and other things, or you can approach it a different way versus, you know, if you're starting with the show and it has 10,000 impressions, if that's purely dynamic, like, not a whole lot, you can really do

[00:18:12] Heather Osgood: [00:18:12] No, that's a pretty small audience. Really?

[00:18:15] Bart Roselli: [00:18:15] Yeah. Yes, when we look at dynamic like you start to look at more traditional media tactics versus embedded where it's really about the upside of efficiency and, you know, kind of looking at it as like an undervalued stock, um, when you're purchasing it. And the networks have really improved about forecasting.

[00:18:34] And remember, five years ago, that guy, I think this person's got 1.1 million social followers, and it's going to do a hundred thousand. You're like, okay, kind of makes sense, but who knows? And then it does 12,000, and you're like, it's, I mean, we make it as scientific as possible, but I think we've learned over the last 10 years, how to do it and under promise and over deliver together as an industry.

[00:18:55] And I think that's why embedded won't go away because of the [00:19:00] interest there. And dynamic to me is still in one of those; it's still in reflection. Pixel attribution is vital. They link together the growth and evolution for, for those to work hand in hand for synergy. Um, and I think that's going to continue to improve and develop over time. But embedded is always going to be there because there's going to be enough interest from direct response clients looking for that maximize efficiency. And you just have to guide them on as a seller and as an agency to say, here's how you set up that channel to drive the success you're looking for.

[00:19:34] Heather Osgood: [00:19:34] Yeah. Yeah. So you read my mind because that would be my next question: where are pixel tracking and attribution play into dynamic. And I agree with you. I think they really do go hand in hand, but why is that? Can you, can you dig into that just a bit further?

[00:19:51] Bart Roselli: [00:19:51] Sure. And I think it ties back to what we've all discussed on panels and stuff for the last 10 years, which is standard ways to track [00:20:00] podcasts, but there are also innovative ways to do it. And the one thing we always knew with really any media channel, unless it's tied to a direct click-through or a pixel that tracks all activity, is breakage.

[00:20:15] So, and then where is that breakage coming from? Is it a vanity URL? Is it a promo code, et cetera? I mean, all things we've talked about adnauseum, I think in the industry for 10 years. So pixel attribution will help bridge the gap on that attribution from initial response to that because you're capturing all of the activity. You can work scientifically with the client's backend models and also drive your own methodology that says, Hey, this links with this because of this, and this is why this is connective tissue. That helps versus, you know, something that is a little bit less black and white. Attribution's never going to be a hundred percent perfect in every shape and form. Still, we've got pretty honed in, and I think pixel will help quantify the [00:21:00] potential value of dynamic ad insertion as that needs.

[00:21:04] Because if you look at it in terms of drags, you're not going to get the same amount of drag you would get with dynamic ad insertion versus embedded, just because of the sheer nature of the ads not going to live out there in perpetuity. So I think that is why they are forever linked and the constant growth and evolution.

[00:21:20] I mean, I think we can both say probably in the last 12 to 18 months, I mean it's night and day difference. Pixel was a very hot topic like two years ago, but it's like, what is it like, really? And it's like, now you have four and five attribution companies out there, like a working hand in hand, with our company, whatever, and others, just to figure out like, how do we develop this?

[00:21:40] Because this is still while it's a channel that's been around for a while to us, it's still, so what new to the rest of the universe and it's still on us, and we're still trying to quantify further the immense value that we think right now. So like it's really been underrepresented, but I think it's at the point of [00:22:00] inflection.

[00:22:00] Now that we're going to be passed a billion dollars or two all predicted together. It's fascinating. I think you've got the IAB doing a fantastic job. We're trying to standardize it and make it more approachable for bigger brands from that side. And then also you have the Tom Webster's of the world, and there's enough research out there along with Nielsen, et cetera, to give clarity on like who you're reaching the qualitative of the audience. So that's the exciting part because we're kind of in that, like we're at that inflection point, not for like growth of the channel, but more about the evolution of attribution and where it's potentially going.

[00:22:36] Heather Osgood: [00:22:36] Right, right. Absolutely. And yeah, I, I think what's so interesting for us. Is attribution even like at the beginning of 2021? It was like, oh yeah, attribution is kind of nice. And like, I don't know, in the last like three or four months, it's just like, you have to have attribution. If you don't, then we're not going to put you on the campaign.

[00:22:56] Like we're not going to like, advertisers need that [00:23:00] information. And, and it's so interesting because, as you know, attribution tracking isn't available to a hundred percent of podcasts out there, which can be a bit of a challenge, right? If you are one of those podcasters that fit into that place where you cannot do attribution tracking.

[00:23:17] Which some of the bigger companies like Anchor don't allow for, which surprises me. But, you know, so it's, it's interesting when we look at the value that attribution tracking brings. And I do agree with you; they do go hand in hand. But, um, let's talk a little bit about pricing because ultimately when we're looking at creating a return, it all comes down to how much we're paying.

[00:23:40] If you're paying a $5 CPM, you're going to get a very different return than if you're paying a $50 CPM. So as you take a look at dynamic insertion campaigns, I feel like the number's always over the board. So I usually tell people a CPMs are somewhere between $15 and $50 like. And $50 might be on the [00:24:00] low side sometimes, $15 might be on the high side. So what do you think is, is the appropriate way to price dynamic and, is there a one size fits all? Yeah.

[00:24:14] Bart Roselli: [00:24:14] Yeah. I mean, I think there's lots of probably unpack there from that perspective is, um, it depends on a lot of things. So we talked about the variables that you need to vet out when you're doing dynamic. Like, is the host doing the read? Yes or no; if not, that's a lower valuation. That's an influencer-based channel. You don't have the influence of the person regardless of the audience you're reaching. That's a little bit lesser of a value to what we're looking at. 

[00:24:42] So there's that? How many ads are there? How many impressions are there? Um, what's the potential growth of the channel. So at any point in time, you're buying XYZ, share of voice. Is it growing? Is it, you know, over time? Is it diluting as the show grows? You could dilute share a [00:25:00] voice just on that. So there's a lot of things there, but I think what's happened over the last year is like as brands, more brands kind of come in, as long as things are standardized, a little bit better, there's more comfortability for them, you know, on, um, most performance-based campaigns.

[00:25:15] Like there's going to need to be rationalized things from a sales perspective to validate the higher side of that CPM range you talked about because it could be 10 to 25 bucks to me. It could be, you know, the only time you start going really north of, you know, $20 to $40 is you start hitting on, like, you have the influencer doing the read, like, you know, are they refreshed, reads every single time that you're running? Or is it just once a month? 

[00:25:43] So many things make some of these networks still figure out the give and take. Because end, you know, like CPMs are directional if it's performing, but if the structure of it is not set up the right way, you can have a very low CPM and not even work. 

[00:25:59] At the [00:26:00] same respect, you can have a very high CPM with a lot of structure and still have it not work. So understanding what that chemistry set is to have it hit the right points is really what unlocks the potential of the true value. And it's probably more campaign by campaign, but I think at a macro level, those are the questions, as a sales team and networks, like they need to really own and understand that to help validate their proposed cost.

[00:26:24]Heather Osgood: [00:26:24] I love that idea that it's like, it's chemistry, right? So what is the chemistry setup of your campaign? And one of the beauties of podcast advertising and one of the challenges is that everything isn't black and white. It isn't the same. And if you were a company and you buy an ad campaign on podcasting and spend, let's say, a hundred thousand dollars. It can be totally different from another a hundred thousand dollar campaign run differently on different podcasts. And the value of that, I [00:27:00] think really for me, gets back to the influencer piece, which is also something I like to talk a lot about is that when we have that host read ad. If the host is really truly an influencer, that's not really a variable that you can even calculate for because you don't know how well the audience is going to respond to the messaging of that product.

[00:27:25] Bart Roselli: [00:27:25] Yeah, I mean, the one thing we know is influencers perform. They work; we do it all day long, we buy tens of thousands of podcasts weekly from our perspective. But, uh, the one thing that would definitely frighten me is trying to go into the ecosystem of this many podcasts and figuring out where I start?

[00:27:47] There are just so many programs and shows out there where we're in a fortunate spot because we have data and technology that allows us to like mine and comb through it, understand what shows hit inflection points of growth. And when does [00:28:00] it started becoming a potential you're not necessarily appointed to mission returns, but when you need to, to your strategy in terms of flighting and stuff.

[00:28:06] So we're fortunate in that respect, but there's no doubt that the CPM is that we're applying to influencers, which when clients come in with not a lot of experience or background with influencers, they're like, well, I'm paying this on Facebook, or I'm paying this on digital. I'm like, this is not the same campaign. Like you can expect higher conversion rates. You can, you know, expect this is an unstructured ecosystem in terms of the content. You don't have a producer, like on a radio program that's like, go like, get off the clock. Like we've got to get back to the show content. So that bridges, and that's why you have most influencers running longer than your proposed ad length.

[00:28:44] And that's really where the value comes out. And if they're really passionate about a product and you do this through the vetting process and working with networks, such as yourself to be like, which products do they like, which ones they feel comfortable with. That's when you hit a home run, and that's when the true power of this comes out and [00:29:00] that's why. That's why it's such a burgeoning channel, and that's why it will be a traditional channel if you don't think it already is it already is. Um, but I think that's the exciting part about it.

[00:29:10] Heather Osgood: [00:29:10] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, you made a really nice bridge for us to talk about working with an agency. And I know one of the things that I get asked a lot is how do I go about buying podcast advertising? And there are lots of different ways that you can buy podcast ads, right? Some harder than others.

[00:29:30] And certainly one of the easier ways to buy podcast advertising is to work with a company like Veritone One. However, not every company is necessarily going to be a good fit. Um, so typically, I usually tell people if you're, if you want to start small, if you want to do a couple, or if you have a relatively small budget, probably best just to go alone there.

[00:29:53] But if companies are really wanting to test out the medium. Working with an agency like yours can really be, I think, [00:30:00] super helpful. So, um, talk to us a little bit about, um, the types of clients you work with, and why someone wants to work with your company.

[00:30:09] Bart Roselli: [00:30:09] Um, yeah, we've been very blessed to have a lot of really blue-chip brands over our history and be able to work with the HelloFresh, the Audibles, the Draft Kings, you know, the Bombas in the world like really key, huge brands that are really leading their spaces. Um, And really the exciting part for us is to really help advise and inform.

[00:30:34] So one thing that anybody in any position job or trying to build out their media portfolio is having guidance and knowing who to banter or talk ideas about. So when we are talking about clients and what shows makes sense. We'll call you Heather; we'll call other networks and be like, Hey, here's what we're thinking.

[00:30:50] Like, let's get your thoughts. Like, let's really dive into it. And that's really what we do. Just couple that with analytics and technology. So we have the technology to go [00:31:00] in and see how the talent is doing the reads. Who's doing a great job and then immediately to tie it to performance. Wow, this person did an amazing job of look what we saw in terms of return.

[00:31:11] Let's try to replicate that out in the marketplace. Or, Hey, so-and-so, you know, could use a little bit of tweaking and massaging on this. We can do with our like patented technology to be able to proactively optimize a campaign instead of reacting, which usually will take a couple of weeks for others. But really comes down to data.

[00:31:30]When you have hundreds of millions of dollars of data to go in through, and just basically imagine a seven-year history on a program? Like we have that we can go in and look at when was it $500 and now it's $40,000. And like, how does it work for different clients and how does it work against different KPIs and understand which ones make the most sense at the right time for clients. So it really allows us to really just accelerate the strike rate so that when you go into it, and there are millions of podcasts out there, [00:32:00] we all know there's like probably three to 5% of that might be monetizable. But to go in and be like, okay, well, why are these 25 to 30 shows versus these are like, how do you know? So there you are, just really trusting judgment, and that's where data and actual Intel helps us out. And then we can react and advise if it's pacing ahead based on, you know, models and forecasting, where do we think it can go? And that kind of allows us to make proactive decisions.

[00:32:25] So you might be testing this certain timeframe, and you can dabble it on your own and do it at a smaller level. I'm sure that definitely makes sense. Get comfortable with the channel, but when you're ready to like it, supercharge it and figure it out very quickly and have it become a core part of your portfolio.

[00:32:42] That's when we hope that people will consider Veritone One. And that's where we can apply data technology and research to this channel that has always been like searching and wanting that input. And this is why it's invaluable to us. And that's why we get to work with all of the great partners out there and give [00:33:00] constructive feedback. Cause it's all about improving and getting better on a case-by-case basis.

[00:33:05] Heather Osgood: [00:33:05] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And for me, that data is so amazing because there is so really so little information out there still about podcasts, and yeah, working with a company like yours that has a proven track record that understands how shows perform and going from, yeah, you know, maybe. At the same time, there are millions of podcasts, and not all of them are not; most of them are monetized able, there's still if you look across the ones that are there still are probably hundreds of thousands to choose from. And so how do you choose? And working with a company like Veritone One allows you not to choose because you can go through and say, These are the best 25 shows should be advertising on. One of the questions I have, though, that I find we run up against sometimes is inventory.

[00:33:56] And so, know, I think that that's one of the challenges about the [00:34:00] medium too is you've got this one show that you're like, man, that show performs really well, but all of a sudden now, it's sold out all the time because it's performing so well. And so is that a big challenge for you guys? I mean, obviously, you've got all this data, but ultimately there's only a certain number of ads available?

[00:34:17] Bart Roselli: [00:34:17] Well, I mean, if it's one that I think we all could collectively, networks, and the industry, and ourselves can take pride in that we created that supply and demand together. Um, so when stuff is working great, that's a great problem for us all to have the one difference: you know, this channel in relation to other traditional channels is that you can still create more shows. There's, you know, in other channels, there's a restriction of audience or geographical signals that you can reach, so you're capped. You're uncapped and podcasts, so that's great. And that one, but that should also motivate the people performing in podcasting to be in front of new shows and be in front of this stuff because the [00:35:00] upside of that stuff is massive.

[00:35:01] But also at some point in time, like our goal as an industry is to make it and keep it as efficient as it is, but not turn it into super highly commercialized based programs, because when you pull back from what the excitement and really the separation of what podcasts really is. So that's a good problem to have.

[00:35:20] There's plenty of other like shows and demographics that do it. So I think there are interesting things with being able to start looking at targeting by the audience, similar to a streaming ecosystem where you can do different and exciting things. But I think the supply and demand thing is a positive problem for us to all figure out.

[00:35:37] But also when you see signs of life is that's when you want to recommit to the program and the network and then figure out, okay, what's next. And then just keep kind of moving because the channel is an ecosystem; it's going to keep growing every week. There are dozens of new shows that come out. So if you think about it, if you just kind of kept doing the same advertising consistently, your quote-unquote [00:36:00] shared voice in the ecosystem reduces every single week, if you're not continuing to test et cetera and to have an uncapped channel with that potential is, is almost unheard of from that perspective. Compared to what we saw traditionally with like radio, TV, and print, et cetera, it doesn't degrade the value of what those are for mass reach and value, but where podcasts are powerful as, you know, a more controlled content ecosystem that allows for flexibility and for personalities to really be themselves, do it with a less number of ad units.

[00:36:34] And the demand is going to come because they seem successful. And that's a good problem for us all to deal with.

[00:36:39]Heather Osgood: [00:36:39] Absolutely. Well, Bart, that is a good note for us to end today. I really appreciate you coming on the show, and I appreciate all of you know the wisdom and guidance you've given us because I know that you have been in the industry for a really long time. And, um, you guys have some, some really great insights that I think lots of [00:37:00] people would love to be able to take a look at.

[00:37:02] So it's, it's great to have you on the show today. And if anyone's listening and they would like to contact Veritone One, um, potentially work with you, where would be a good place for them to find you?

[00:37:13] Bart Roselli: [00:37:13] Sure. I'm happy to reach out to me at bart@veritoneone.Com. We'd love to talk to you guys about anything that might pique your interest and just understanding a little bit about the channel and, uh, yeah. Thank you, Heather, for having me on; it's a great pleasure and, uh, re I still remember it, we always talk about the first podcast event that we met at, and we're like, True Native Media is onto something here. They get it, like this will be exciting and for us to be having these conversations from what seven and eight-plus years ago, uh, it's just inspiring. So thanks for the opportunity to join there, to join your show.

[00:37:46] Heather Osgood: [00:37:46] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for being on, and here's to another great seven, eight years ahead of us. Right?

[00:37:53] Bart Roselli: [00:37:53] Absolutely.

[00:37:54] Heather Osgood: [00:37:54] All right. Thanks so much.

[00:37:57] Bart Roselli: [00:37:57] Thanks guys. Have a good one.