Finding Podcasts To Advertise On Got A Lot Easier With Podchaser

This transcription is not edited. 

[00:00:00] Heather Osgood: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, advertising playbook, a show dedicated to podcast advertising. If you're a podcaster or an advertiser, and you're wondering how you can take advantage of this rapidly growing space, your in the right place on the program. We'll discuss strategies and techniques to optimize your experience with podcast advertising.

[00:00:30]Hello and welcome to the podcast advertising playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood. And I am pleased to be joined by Bradley Davis, the CEO of Podchaser, on today's episode. I had heard of Podchaser I knew it was out there. I really liked the services that they were offering, but then maybe a month or so ago, I had an opportunity to just sit down and talk with Bradley. And when I did, I was like, Oh my gosh, what you are creating is absolutely amazing. I just loved it. And so I really wanted to bring him on the show today, [00:01:00] just to talk a little bit about the platform and some of the really innovative things that they're doing. Welcome to the show today, Bradley.

[00:01:07] Bradley Davis: [00:01:07] Hi. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:09] Heather Osgood: [00:01:09] So I was hoping that we could start by having you just give us just a quick background on who you are and what landed you here in this wonderful podcast space.

[00:01:19] Bradley Davis: [00:01:19] Yeah, so I am originally from Indiana. I moved into Kentucky and now I live in Oklahoma city. I moved here about six months ago.

[00:01:28] My podcasting journey started as a result of my job. So I was in industrial sales, so selling goods to manufacturers door to door which is very not exciting. And as a result of that job, I was driving all the time. So multiple hours a day, I had time in my car, which is like the perfect time to listen to podcasts.

[00:01:52]So as, or that I had some personal grievances with that experience to me, [00:02:00] I just couldn't find a destination similar to like an IMDB or good reads for podcasts. It was difficult to find if a podcast was good or not, there no indication of quality.

[00:02:12]If I really liked a guest, and I really vibed with somebody's story, and I want more, how do I find that person's other interviews? There was really nothing. Because of that experience, I wanted to wanted something like Podchaser to exist. And I went to Reddit on the podcast, Sub Reddit, and basically asked Hey, does anybody want to build something like Podchaser ? And that's where I found our co-founder. We have four co-founders, but the first one was from Reddit and he lives in Melbourne, Australia. And so he and I still have not met . We were planning on meeting. We haven't, we're playing a meeting in 2020.

[00:02:52] But then, the whole world was on lockdown. So I think we're going to meet this year maybe, but yeah, that's the [00:03:00] Genesis of Podchaser. It really came from my own personal frustrations with the lack of availability of data too. Find more cool shows to listen to. And so that's what budgets are, is today.

[00:03:13] Heather Osgood: [00:03:13] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, that is obviously that's the true entrepreneurial journey, right? Is that you come across something in your why? Like, why is there not a solution to this problem? I don't understand. And then you're like, Hey, I'm going to solve that problem, which is certainly what you've done.

[00:03:29] And, I think a question that I get asked a lot is, why is there not a podcast database or why can I not go and just find all the shows out there? So I know that that's not exactly what Podchaser is, but can you talk a little bit more about what the platform is and you know what maybe from a, an advertiser's perspective, how they could use Podchaser to find the information that could be really helpful for them.

[00:03:57] Bradley Davis: [00:03:57] Yeah. So the easiest way to think [00:04:00] about Podchaser is there is IMDb. It's a place where you can write and review things on a show level in an episode level, but also we've collected over 8 million credits, meaning who's on the show, whether it's a host, gue st, producer, whoever it may be. So that's our core site experience for our users.

[00:04:17]Most of our data is crowdsourced, which turns out to be a really effective way to organize data sets. If you look at things like Wikipedia or IMDb or Good Reads, these are all crowdsourced databases. So, we also have another layer of data on top of that for our pro users, which looks at things like popularity, reach, demographics , topics, look alike audience analysis, and a bunch of other cool stuff that is very helpful for advertisers. So in kind of the advertiser journey where we see ourselves fitting in is that top of the funnel discovery planning phase. Which is I'm a brand I [00:05:00] want to advertise on this type of show, or I want to advertise on this topic.

[00:05:05]Where do you find 50 shows that are within those parameters? You can use Podchaser's database to narrow that search down way more efficiently than a series of Google searches and dead ends and frustration. Yeah that's how advertisers tend to use the platform.

[00:05:22] Heather Osgood: [00:05:22] Yeah. And so from just a listener perspective, the average listener is using it by going in and saying, Hey, I really loved this interview with this person. Where else can I find content around them? And then they go on, like you said, they crowdsource it by saying, Oh, Hey, I listened to this interview with this person. Or I listened to this podcast. I love this host. So that you're getting some sort of a two-way conversation because there's obviously ratings and reviews and Apple podcasts. I think about a hundred percent of us really feel like those are all pretty, not real, right?

[00:05:57] Bradley Davis: [00:05:57] It's fairly [00:06:00] gamed. And so yes, the most people use our platform on a daily basis, those types of people are using Podchaser to catalog their podcast journey. They are making lists, they are just trying to discover new shows and they're giving feedback. They're rating things, reviewing things. And then one of our big focuses this year is to further game-ify that experience so that the problem with the Apple Podcast rating system. We're trying to get ahead of that because we not only want you to know the aggregate rating of a show, but we want you to know who rated it. And we want you to learn who those people are, rating things. So we want to make sure that Roger Ebert's of the podcasting universe, because they, while they exist, there's not very many of them and they're not good. They don't really have a good platform, aside from like Twitter, to have an archival experience for the ratings and reviews and for their opinions.

[00:06:58]Yeah, tastemaking, I [00:07:00] think is a gap in the industry that we're trying to fill for sure, by making it to where, Heather goes on Podchaser and leaves, five ratings reviews, and 700 people like your review. It's okay, then, everyone else should pay attention to Heather. Clearly people are watching and care and we can gamify that through data.

[00:07:20]So yes. Does your question? I think that is quite an issue. There's a lack of quality indicators in the podcasting world, and quantity indicators, as I'm sure you're well aware of. And we think we can tackle really both things.

[00:07:36] Heather Osgood: [00:07:36] Yeah. I think that is so fascinating. I hadn't really considered it from that perspective before, but ideally what you're trying to create is someone who has given enough ratings and reviews, and enough people like their feedback that you could very reliably trust them that, Oh, I know that if Bradley left this feedback because he left [00:08:00] so much other feedback that I can trust that as opposed to these. I think the reality, obviously with Apple reviews is that, people get their cousins and their aunts and uncles and the person off of Fiverr or whatever, to leave them ratings and reviews.

[00:08:16] So none of them are accurate because they're like, Hey, I just need to get five stars or four and a half stars or whatever. But we also have no idea who's leaving those reviews. And so your fix to that is that transparency. And obviously like on Yelp there's that feature, right? Like where you can see like how many reviews is this person left and you can follow it from that perspective. So that essentially is what you're doing.

[00:08:39] Bradley Davis: [00:08:39] Yeah. It's a balance. Yelp tends to have much lower reviews than Google, for example, for a restaurant. That is a good thing in some ways. I think Yelp is maybe a little too critical overall because most Google things with over a hundred ratings and reviews are 4.5 or above. So I [00:09:00] think the reality is that not all podcasts are 4.5 and above. I'd argue very few. If we take it to whole universe, I'd argue that the vast majority are not a 4.5 or above podcasts. So we want to be mindful that podcasting is not everyone's full-time job. And we don't want to detract from people's,  hobby or livelihood. But at the same time, I think it's important that whenever a publisher releases a show, they're not all hits, they're not all wonderful. And it's important that consumers can get ahead of that efficiently with data so that podcasting can keep growing. Cause it's frustrating cause you really have to listen to stuff at this point or hear it from a friend .

[00:09:44] And then you might sink five hours into a show and be like, screw this, like this not even good. And I don't know where to go to qualify. I'm spending three hours on something yet. So I think in the next couple of years, we'll have a rotten [00:10:00] tomatoes/IMDb kind of experience through Podchaser that will help this issue quite a bit.

[00:10:05] Heather Osgood: [00:10:05] Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And I think that you're right. And I feel like that is something that we overlook a lot. Podcasts are so valuable because they are created by independent producers and we're not trying to, in any way say, Hey, all those independent podcasters out there like myself are creating podcasts and really have absolutely no formal training in this are bad shows. But the reality is that when you're looking for a super superstar show, when you're looking to invest a lot of time in a podcast, it is so nice to have that information.

[00:10:40]Is there a way for you to also go in there and say, I like that show. And then all of a sudden I get a recommendation for 10 other shows that are similar.

[00:10:51] Bradley Davis: [00:10:51] Yes and no. So you can go to How I Built This on Podchaser, and there's a related podcast section that takes [00:11:00] user activity and generates 20 shows that are similar to How I Built This , that is not served to you directly. You have to go to the, How I Built This page. But over time, yes, we will. We will be serving those recommendations directly to you based on what you written review and what you follow and who you like to make that process a little bit more efficient. But yeah we have an algorithm that goes through and looks at everyone's ratings and reviews everyone's activity in groups and clusters podcasts together.

[00:11:27] A big focus of ours too, is properly categorizing, tagging, and sussing out the niche and the niche all-stars. There are a lot of podcasts about podcasting, but many of them are better than others. And so I think that makes it more of a fair race in a sense to pit you against other independent podcasters who don't have formal training necessarily.

[00:11:49] And also there's plenty of room for there to be 20 of those. Is there playing room for there to be, there's probably 500 of those. Are they all great. Probably not, but I bet there's 20. That are really [00:12:00] good. So that's a goal too is to niche down as much as possible so that the race is more fair. If that makes sense.

[00:12:08] Heather Osgood: [00:12:08] I think that makes absolute sense. Yeah. And for instance, I like to listen to podcasts within the podcast space. And I feel like it's tons of fun, but yeah. None of my friends or family would want to write, like they're not listening to me. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that makes total sense.

[00:12:25] Now, one of the questions that I get from advertisers a lot is they'll come and they'll say I get this from advertisers and from podcasters, but they'll say, Oh, this show ranked, it was number 10. And the Apple Podcast ratings that must mean it's a really great show. And I feel like I have a hard time explaining to advertisers and podcasters that, Hey, that is amazing. That you're ranking so well, like nice job or, Hey, this show is a great show, but it doesn't really mean a ton.

[00:12:57] Would you say that Podchaser has been able [00:13:00] to establish maybe some more credibility around, Hey, these are rankers and there is value in this. And it really does matter that you're number five in this category or what have you?

[00:13:13]Bradley Davis: [00:13:13] As part of our pro service, we, and this actually, we just released this um, yesterday. So, uh, We were always trying to innovate. So we do now display Apple , Spotify, Google, and Stitcher charts within our insights tab that also shows downloads. So I think that's the answer is, you're totally right. You can chart really well, but really not have a very large show. But, it means that you're gaining some sort of momentum. And so if you're number one in some category, you probably have a decent listenership and, but you're not Joe Rogan. Like you're not number one, number one. That's not what it means. So by having both pieces of information, I think that's the answer here. Also depends on the advertiser's [00:14:00] goal or whoever's trying to interact with the podcast.

[00:14:02] Maybe you're within a niche and you're, you want your executive to be on that podcast as a guest and they're number one in health science or whatever, if that's recent, then that's valuable. And it doesn't really matter if they have a million downloads. So yeah, I think to us, we view ourselves as an aggregator of all that information. So having the chart data, but also having our monthly reach number is the best of both worlds.

[00:14:31] Heather Osgood: [00:14:31] Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that's really great. So I'm curious if, for the average advertiser out there, let's say maybe they're a director, consumer brand they're interested in getting in the podcast advertising space.

[00:14:44] Do you see a lot of companies like that coming to Podchaser and saying Hey, I'm going to sign up because I want this information and I want to use it to help me make advertising decisions. Or are you finding that your customers tend to be agencies maybe in this space who are going [00:15:00] to be working with multiple clients whose best to use your product from an advertising perspective?

[00:15:06] Bradley Davis: [00:15:06] Yeah, so I think last time we talked, it was agencies. And we have a lot of the major podcast ad buyers on our platform, which is great. And then we realized, okay these agencies are buying ads on behalf of brands. And so as we started talking to more brands and as brands started approaching us, we started selling a lot more to brands.

[00:15:28] So it's both. I think a large enough brand that has their own staffing for that purpose can use our platform just like agency can use the platform. So we've seen both. A lot of brands will use us for PR purposes and ad buying purposes as a qualifier, like a qualifying step for opportunities that are presented to them.

[00:15:52] But yeah, like I said, last time we talked, I. I didn't really know who, who would want this data? [00:16:00] Cause it, we just released this product in November of last year. So we're still learning a lot about who's using this. We have a lot of non-profits using the platform today, we didn't expect that.

[00:16:11] Heather Osgood: [00:16:11] That does seem really unexpected to me. Why do you think non-profits are drawn to it?

[00:16:16] Bradley Davis: [00:16:16] Because I think the most efficient way to advertise your business is getting on podcasts and finding those podcasts is really hard. We make it way easier to find those podcasts and then also qualify them with things like reach and demographics.  The same can be said for buying ads.

[00:16:33] Some of these nonprofits are developing media plans and there's a discovery phase. That is a lot of times Google. And so we can we can make that process more efficient. So yeah we're always surprised there's some restaurant chains, some hilarious restaurant chains that are using Podchaser Pro.

[00:16:54] I would have never guessed that in a million years. And so we're we're constantly learning about. The ways people are [00:17:00] willing to use the data that we provide.

[00:17:03] Heather Osgood: [00:17:03] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that it is really fascinating and obviously I like to look at everything from an advertising perspective, but I also do really think that when people are new to podcasting, not that you shouldn't go and just, head to buying ads, cause there's nothing wrong with just entering the space as an ad buyer. But, I do think that there's a lot to be said for getting exposure for your company through interviews on podcasts. And while there are certainly a handful of services out there where you can work directly with them to arrange interviews for you, which takes a lot of the leg workout.

[00:17:39] There's a lot of power in podcasting beyond just advertising. And one of the biggest challenges with podcasts is that there are so many that really honing in on the right shows like we've been talking about is such a challenge. So I would think that, like you mentioned, from a non-profit perspective or even from a business's [00:18:00] perspective, Hey, we want to get our CEO interviewed on different shows. How do we know who to target? Or how do we get to those shows? They can use the platform for advertising, but they can also use it for interviews. Or is there another way that you feel like they could use the platform to really help them get exposure?

[00:18:19]Bradley Davis: [00:18:19] I think you nailed it. I think, to me interview based podcast are just ads, 99% of the time. Like late night talk shows are ads. They're interviewing a lot celebrities that are interesting that tell canned stories. Now podcasting is much better than that because you get an hour with that person. You get more time and you really do talk about that person's story. But it's an ad. It's an ad and it's a branding exercise for an individual.

[00:18:47] So like how I built, this is an amazing ad platform to me. Like those are interviews, like I just listened to the Kodiak Cake interview. And I'm like, I'm going to go buy 50 boxes of [00:19:00] pancake mix because this is so cool. And I went to Chicken Salad Chick because that was like the best interview I had ever heard in my life.

[00:19:10] And that should be the goal of a brand is to, if you have a spokesperson, who's that good on an interview? There's your ad. And. Also, of course you want to also be buying ads in podcasting, especially if you can do so natively, but yeah. Podcast interviews are to me a 30 to 60 minute long native ad.

[00:19:33] So those are the ways we encourage people to utilize podcasting is placing ads on the right shows that reach the right people and then using your executives or spokespeople or your researchers, or your cool interesting employees to be assets for interviews to get your brand out there and to really talk about what you're doing with more than, 60 seconds of time.

[00:19:57] Heather Osgood: [00:19:57] For sure. I totally agree with [00:20:00] you. The reality is that interviews are great ads for your company and there are a lot of fun,  to, it's such a great platform to be able to get out there and talk about what it is that you're doing, what your company is doing.

[00:20:12] And I often tell people that if you are unsure about whether you should jump into podcast advertising, start with interviews because they don't cost a ton and you can get out there and see how it works. If you have some traction with an interview, chances are, you're going to have traction with ads too. Granted they're different for sure. But I think that,  it's a good way of going about it. However, one of the things I always tell people is that if you're looking to interviews to either prove the value of podcasts, or if you're looking to interviews to create some action, whether that's grow listenership or sell more product, you do have to make sure that you're actually getting interviewed on podcasts that have a decent audience.

[00:20:56] And I think that. I think that's a little controversial to say, because I [00:21:00] feel often that people in the industry say things like, Oh, it doesn't matter. And Hey, if you were talking to a room of 50 or 200 people, that would be amazing. And it is right that we don't want to discount that. But also if you're using it specifically for a vehicle that you want to relate to grow, that you want conversions out of it, you need to get on podcasts that are actually sizable so that you can see the results. And I feel like that's where a product like Podchaser really comes into play so well, because it can be really challenging. Especially for somebody that isn't in the podcast space at all to come in and say, okay, How many downloads does this show have, right? Do they have 10 listeners? Do they have 10,000? Do they have a hundred thousand? The average person really has no idea. And so it sounds to me like Podchaser really gives them that, that information and that data that they really wouldn't have the ability to find anywhere else.

[00:21:53] Bradley Davis: [00:21:53] Yeah, exactly. I think you're totally right. There's nothing wrong with a podcast that gets 20 downloads, the CEO of Coca [00:22:00] Cola. It's not a good exercise to get on that podcast. Unless those 20 people were like, I don't know, like presidents of nations or something. And that's a good, it's a good thought exercise because if you're selling yachts and you are on a podcast that has listeners that all are yacht owners or people who want to buy yachts, if it has  50 people, that's a great opportunity. But for more general thought leadership or brand awareness, you do have to pay attention to, to reach eventually for sure. And there's nothing wrong with having that conversation it's controversial, but it shouldn't be.

[00:22:39] Heather Osgood: [00:22:39] Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I do think, you make a really good point, which is it all depends on your goals, right?

[00:22:45] If your goal is just to get better at doing podcast interviews. Have at it, do as many as you want, if your goal is to reach a specific, very targeted audience, and this show has 50 of those target people that could be worth way more than [00:23:00] 50,000 un-targeted people. So I think really you have to look at it from all those perspectives, but I think one of the big challenges that we see in the space over and over again is assessing the size of podcast audiences.

[00:23:12]And I feel like, credit to a lot of podcasts. I know when I first got in this space, I was like, what? You have a thousand downloads? Like, how is that possible? Because I think people do oftentimes present themselves very professionally and you, a lot of times might assume that a show has a much larger audience than they actually have. And so I think a tool like yours is so valuable because it maybe does give you more of the data that really does help make decisions.

[00:23:42]Bradley Davis: [00:23:42] To me, you have to set the table. People just need access to data to make decisions, period. And there's nothing wrong with that. And this argument, and that's that's the conflict between independent podcasters and the big publishers. There are different goals and there's nothing wrong with having different goals, but [00:24:00] we just have to have more transparency about reach to grow the industry. I hear so many times brands saying it is just like a black box.

[00:24:09] Like how can I scale an advertising plan if I don't have data on 75% of shows? And that's a problem. If this industry is going to supplant radio, which I think it will, then we have to have standardization and some taxonomy and some just table stakes and then it'll continue growing like it is. I think these tools just yeah, to be used more widely and from our like very short stint in this space , everyone wants it. People are very hungry for this data because people want to spend money on podcasting. I think people are sold on that piece of it.

[00:24:51] Podcasting has tremendous value. People that listen to podcasts tend to spend money , tend to be ideal consumers. And now it's our responsibility from the [00:25:00] industry perspective to provide the tools to do that efficiently.

[00:25:04] Heather Osgood: [00:25:04] I think that comment was so powerful because as you said, these are table stakes, right? And that's one of the things I struggle with a bit in the industry is, I understand it's history. I understand where it's come from, but I also think that if we really do want to take strides forward, we have to get realistic about the baseline of information that has to be provided for advertisers to see the value.

[00:25:34]And, that data can come in a variety of different ways. And I know there are a lot of companies like Podchaser working to provide us that data. And I do really believe that all of it is coming and is growing, right now, which is exciting. But I, we have to realize that is a baseline that advertisers have to have that information, in order to invest heavily. And if we want them to invest [00:26:00] heavily, we have to give them the tools that they need to make those buying decisions.

[00:26:05] Bradley Davis: [00:26:05] Yeah, absolutely. I think because of the genesis of podcasting and the like bizarre, fragmented, independent weirdness, that's why podcasting is awesome. And that's why there is this tension between, an iHeart show that has half the listenership of some person in their basement. That's, what's so cool. And so bridging that gap, that's why it's challenging because, if you're in TV, you may be consolidating information from, a hundred channels and podcasting it's 2 million channels. And so some of which are part of an organization, some of which are completely independent, most of which are independent.

[00:26:45] So I think that's the tension that's always there. It's just, how do we organize this inherently unorganized space without pissing everybody off and in a way [00:27:00] that helps it grow. Cause everyone wants it to grow. Everyone wants everyone in the world to listen to their podcast. So yeah it's a balancing act.

[00:27:06] I think you, have to maintain and fight for the independent element of this, or it's not going to work, it's just going to turn into radio. And I don't think anybody wants that. So it's fascinating. I think if you really look at the history of podcasting it makes total sense why it is the way it is today. And it's getting much better at a really quick clip. And I think that's exciting, but yeah, hopefully podcasting does maintain its weirdness. I think that's why people love it so much.

[00:27:37] Heather Osgood: [00:27:37] I totally agree. Yeah, totally. So I'm curious as you look to we're recording this kind of mid January. So as you look to the upcoming year maybe pandemic aside, cause no one really knows one knows what's gonna happen with that, I'm curious what your predictions are for the industry and then also how you see pod chaser kind of fitting into to that growth potential?

[00:27:58]Bradley Davis: [00:27:58] I think there's going to be a lot more [00:28:00] consolidation. I think that's going to continue to happen at least for another year. It may slow down after that, but I think that you're going to look at like the New York times I think is going to do some interesting things and it has an interesting opportunity in audio.

[00:28:15]Obviously Spotify and Apple and Serious are going to continue to invest in the space. I think that is a good thing overall, that there is going to be some sort of consolidation  but, at the same time. I think people are going to continue being independent, making great independent podcasts.

[00:28:33] It's just, I think it's going to be less often where you see a podcast with a million downloads, not tied to a network. Right now, it's still definitely happens, but they're going to be picked up really quick. Cause it's all about this race for content and trying to grab someone's attention for an hour on Amazon Music versus Pandora, versus Spotify versus Apple, like into their ecosystem.

[00:28:56] So I think that's gonna continue to happen. I [00:29:00] think there are plenty of awesome companies that are still. Primed to be a part of a network, especially from a content perspective .

[00:29:07] For Podchaser, I think our goal remains to be like the picks and shovels. Like we want to keep building tools. We want to maintain our identity as a third party which I think is really powerful for things like tastemaking and analytics and keeping everyone honest, more or less. Yeah, I think this year we're going to do a lot more with gamification. We're going to do a lot more to foster the relationship between a podcast or in the podcast listener with community tools, which I think is really exciting and a huge gap in industry.

[00:29:37] Like people are talking to each other on Patreon, what? Or Facebook groups like? It's just, it's all over the place. And I think that we have a cool opportunity to. Keep that relationship in one place tied to an archive. Everything needs to be tied to an archive. I think that's why Podchaser works. It seems every week there's some cool gossip or another acquisition or something happening and it's fun to be a part of.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Heather Osgood: [00:30:00] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that is such a great time to be part of a growing industry and knowing that essentially we're all creating the foundations of what is to come is pretty, pretty cool. It's a lot of fun. How can people take advantage of really all the offerings that you have.

[00:30:19] Bradley Davis: [00:30:19] Yeah. So if you're a listener, if you're just a podcast, listener, make an account it's free and great interview stuff, follow people. If you're a podcaster it's free. Just come on and claim your podcast, add people, add creators, add your guests, add your producer. Make sure everything's connected. I think that. It's just another place for people to discover your show. Your show is likely already on Podchaser. So make sure you claim it and spruce it up, how you like it.

[00:30:47] And then if you're a brand or an agency or a PR firm or non-profit apparently , I think pro is a great tool set. And there's a little pro button on the homepage that you can just get more [00:31:00] information there.

[00:31:01] Our podcast is really want pro tools, too. So I think that's going to be coming soon is we're going to have some pro functionality for podcasters that want a little bit more out of the platform a little bit more networking ability within the platform. So that'll be a kind of a coming soon, but for now it's, everything's totally free for a podcast or so just utilize the free stuff for sure.

[00:31:23] Heather Osgood: [00:31:23] Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much, Bradley. I really appreciate you coming on the show today. And I do really encourage everybody listening to go on pod chaser, just check it out. Like Bradley said, it's free to create an account if you're  if you're so inclined, so I would really encourage you to go check it out because they think there's some great things happening and really a whole lot more to come.

[00:31:41] It sounds like in the months and years ahead of us. So thanks. Thanks so much for being on the show.

[00:31:46] Bradley Davis: [00:31:46] Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

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