Here’s Why You Need A Brand Audio Strategy

This transcript is edited.

[00:00:14] Heather Osgood: Hello and welcome to the Podcast Advertising Playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood. And with me on the program today, we have Korri Kolesa, the CRO at Veritonic. Welcome to the program. 

[00:00:27] Korri Kolesa: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:00:29] Heather Osgood: Yeah. So Korri, you and I were just talking about how our paths really haven't crossed too much. And we've both been in the industry for a while. Tell us a little bit about how you got into the podcast space. 

[00:00:39] Korri Kolesa: Well, interestingly, I've always been drawn towards new media formats and those most engaging with consumers, and podcasting fits that perfectly. In my previous life, I was at a company called MySpace, which you've probably heard of, and I'm dating myself by saying so. But that was really at the forefront of social media and social networking.

[00:01:01] Korri Kolesa: And my interest in finding mediums that engage strongly with consumers and how to create exciting revenue models around them. Plus, do it in a way that's not too intrusive. And so podcasting had taken off in finding great listener engagement. Still, there wasn't really a codified monetization model around it.

[00:01:24] Korri Kolesa: And that's my sweet spot. That's what I like to think about. Now we're many years out from that, and of course, it's taken off. I'm really interested in that intersection of consumer engagement and monetization.

[00:01:38] Heather Osgood: Yeah, that's so fascinating. Well, I'm excited about our conversation today because podcasting is that that revenue piece has shifted. And we are just at the beginning of the shifts that I think will take place in the industry overall, so it's gonna be interesting. So what would you say are some of the most impactful changes you've seen in podcasting?

[00:02:09] Korri Kolesa: First and foremost, seeing dynamic ad insertion take hold, which was necessary. It was pivotal to be able to dynamically insert or digitally insert an ad, take it out, and replace that.

[00:02:26] Korri Kolesa: It seems simple. But it was not common practice. And that really opened things up, from how you could monetize a show and the advertisers you could serve. It also opened up a whole new world around how you could track and the analytics behind it.

[00:02:41] Korri Kolesa: So I would say that was paramount. It was necessary to allow the industry to scale. And then, over the last couple of years, many more brand businesses have come into the space. And initially, it was performance-based advertising. So bringing brand dollars in and talking about podcasting as a digital format has been pivotal.

[00:03:04] Korri Kolesa: Anytime you've got money that can follow a space, that's going to help open it up. It's how we get the dollars content is commanding in our space. 

[00:03:20] Heather Osgood: I could talk about dynamic ad insertion for hours. I was pleased in the IAB report that it has grown to 84% of ads being served dynamically. I have always predicted that the industry will go to fully dynamic insertion at some point. What is your prediction? 

[00:03:42] Korri Kolesa: I would assume that as well. Yeah. I think that anytime we're not in that mode, we're leaving an opportunity for revenue on the table. There's no reason you can't do quality seamless dynamic ad insertion becuase it's just a mode of delivering the ad. It shouldn't affect the listener's experience at all. So if it's done well, there's no reason it shouldn't be every single ad served that way. 

[00:04:03] Heather Osgood: I totally agree. And we're super interested to see more brand advertisers enter this space. And as you mentioned, many have been coming, and I'm sure there will be many more. 

[00:04:13] Heather Osgood: What brought you to Veritonic? 

[00:04:20] Korri Kolesa: Interestingly, I was a customer when I was at Midroll, Stitcher, and then Art 19. And so I'd known the product and the team really well. There was an extraordinary meeting of the minds in the last 12 months, and it was an excellent opportunity to come and be part of it. I believe in what analytics will bring to this space. And I was using it at Stitcher to figure out how we show performance.

[00:04:52] Korri Kolesa: How do we demonstrate how effective this medium is through metrics? So we were using Veritonic for that. And then the same type of work at Art 19. Veritonic has been around six and a half years, and I always say that Veritonic was almost early to this space. People who understood where things were using it early on, but now the space has grown so much. It's like it's ready for an audio-first measurement platform. So to be part of it has been great. I think it's important to like who you work with every day, and that was very important to me, and I love these guys. It's a great, great group of people. 

[00:05:31] Heather Osgood: That's terrific. So tell us a little bit more about Veritonic. Tell us a little bit more about the company and what you guys actually do.

[00:05:44] Korri Kolesa: Yeah. So you can think of us as an end-to-end audio analytics platform.

[00:05:48] Korri Kolesa: So, at any point in the audio advertising and content lifecycle, we offer a smarter solution to show how that audio has performed or will perform, plus what your competitors are doing. And Veritonic has been around a long time. It started in what we call our creative measurement practice.

[00:06:07] Korri Kolesa: So we developed a Veritonic audio score. It allows us to understand the audio market benchmark. What is that human response to sound? How do you quantify that? And so we have a Veritonic audio score for all audio, radio, streaming, and podcasting.

[00:06:25] Korri Kolesa: And that's the starting core of what we do. And then, in recent years, we've expanded from that. So we talked about our performance products earlier. Understanding if you're in a market with a campaign, how will it perform? How does it perform from a brand lift or an attribution (bottom of the funnel) perspective? In the early stages of a campaign, you're thinking about your media plan strategy and wondering what your competitors are doing. Using our competitive intelligence tools helps to understand the landscape and make appropriate plans. So it's critical to know how your audio ad might perform against other competitors in your space. So, using these tools to build high-performing ad creative will give you those measures.

[00:07:13] Korri Kolesa: It'll tell you how your ad is scoring against various measures for important things, like purchase intent or recall. So no matter where you are in the lifecycle of your audio campaign, we will meet you at any one or all of those points.

[00:07:35] Heather Osgood: I think it's really fascinating that you are only audio. Obviously, we talk about podcasting a lot here, we love podcasting, but really it's the whole audio experience. So it's not just podcasting, and I guess when you look at a brand, how important is their overall audio strategy?

[00:07:58] Korri Kolesa: Well, it depends on how important they've made it. Some brands really made it central in their media plan. For example, back in the days when Squarespace was everywhere on podcasts because that was their dominant footprint. The audio was at the top of the list in terms of how they thought about their media strategy. They knew it was performing really well in podcasting. I would say that every single brand should have audio in their mix and where they layer that depends on their objectives.

[00:08:33] Korri Kolesa: But not paying attention to audio is an absolute miss. There's the incredible strength of what audio can do that only audio can do. And what's great is that I think podcasting has given audio a bit of a river resurgence. It's like the Renaissance of audio, thanks to podcasting, which I'm absolutely fine with if that's what's galvanizing.

[00:08:54] Korri Kolesa: Podcasting has given audio, broadly, a fresh look from brands. What channels are they running on? Are they playing on terrestrial radio? What is the sonic logo, and what's consistent with that messaging? And I think that's definitely important to consider in every step of media planning. 

[00:09:20] Heather Osgood: Yeah, for sure. My husband and I wanted to watch Yellowstone, and we could only find it on Peacock. I don't even know anything about Peacock because I am very disconnected from most pop culture things. So we bought it, and as soon as we installed the app on our TV, the sonic intro sounded, and I was like, "Oh, this is NBC." 

[00:09:59] Korri Kolesa: That's right. 

[00:10:00] Heather Osgood: But yeah, exactly. So when you're talking about that sonic logo...

[00:10:06] Korri Kolesa: Even without seeing it. 

[00:10:11] Heather Osgood: We don't realize how impactful audio is in our lives and how much it follows us around in our subconscious. So let's run through just like a quick case study or a use case for Veritonic. How will an advertiser take the technology that Veritonic has created and use the tool? Walk us through how they would use it. 

[00:10:48] Korri Kolesa: Without naming any brands without permission, I'll take you through how a brand would engage. Let's say we've got a brand in the auto space, and they're thinking about what they should do in audio. Where they should run, and what kind of creative they should use. So we've got a competitive intelligence tool that allows you to understand what your competitors in the audio space are doing and where they are running ads.

[00:11:14] Korri Kolesa: What do those ads sound like? What are their calls to action? So you start getting smarter about what you're competing against. Sometimes it's just interesting to know. Sometimes, it's really important to know if you're trying to go for market share. So getting a lay of the land, and assessing what the space looks like, is what you would do in our competitive intelligence product. Then once you have a sense of what's happening in the landscape and where you are running ads, you are ready to build some ad creative. I know I'm gonna run it on podcasting and streaming, so I need to make those ad assets. 

[00:11:57] Korri Kolesa: You want to know, is the ad that I'm putting together, the sounds, the voice, the tone of the person speaking, and the music beds behind it or not. How does that resonate with the audience I'm trying to reach? And so, you use our platform to understand what that response will be before you go live. This is really powerful because if you spend a lot of money on a campaign, you want to know if it will perform well. Before you go live.

[00:12:24] Korri Kolesa: That's our creative measurement tool. It's human engagement and understanding of how something will perform before it's live in the market. I'll pause quickly because that same audio company also said, "We don't have an audio Sonic logo yet, and we want to create it." So our tool can also give you those insights and understandings. 

What impact does this grouping of sounds have? Do they speak the language my brand's trying to represent? Then get that insight back as you develop that sonic logo.

[00:13:00] Korri Kolesa:  And then you're live in the market. You're about to launch your campaigns across all the various audio channels, understanding how it actually performs once it's live. Understanding what impact it is having on your brand measure.

[00:13:16] Korri Kolesa: That's where brand lift products come into play. What impact is it having on whatever bottom of the funnel attributes you're trying to measure? So that could be visits to a webpage or purchases. It could be cart activity or that sort of thing. Having that data back to understand, "Okay, I set out to do X, and it delivered Y."

[00:13:35] Korri Kolesa: Having that end-to-end view in one place is really important because it allows you to complete that cycle and iterate. So I know it performed like this and now I can tweak my creative and assets a little bit to have it perform better, et cetera. 

[00:13:53] Heather Osgood: So I'm interested in looking at this from the podcast advertising angle. How do we take the sonic logo and put it into podcasting? So announcer-read ads are certainly growing by a significant mark. And as we talked about the use of more dynamic ad insertion, I'm sure announcer-read ads will increase. I always think about O'Reilly's auto parts. So my kids can sing their jingle; everybody knows it. But if O'Reilly's was like, "Hey, I really want to invest in podcast advertising," how would they take that audio signature they've created through that jingle and translate it into podcasting?

[00:14:53] Heather Osgood: Would they have to use announcer-read ads? 

[00:14:57] Korri Kolesa: You could do either. Here's an example from probably four or five years ago. We were working with Intel, and Intel has a very distinguished recognizable sonic logo.

[00:15:13] Korri Kolesa: There's the bang. You can imagine it without even hearing it. At that point, podcasting was host-read only, and to work with Intel, they required that we use that sonic logo. And, of course, we wanted to work with Intel because it was a great brand to get in the space, and we were trying to break ground there. And they wanted that sonic logo to play before the host-read ad at the beginning. But it was tricky because we weren't doing any dynamic ad insertion. So we had to actually have it play live in the studio.

[00:15:49] Korri Kolesa: But it actually worked beautifully. It was early on, but a great example of how to use the sonic logo. It just kind of like framed who's about to talk to you, and then you go into the announcer-read ad. You can also do it in a produced capacity, and you can do it at the end of the ad. You can do both, having it within an ad's audio mix.

[00:16:17] Korri Kolesa: There's a subconscious reminder. It resonates that this is who's speaking to you and is really important. So it doesn't have to be prerecorded or announcer-read only. 

[00:16:28] Heather Osgood: Okay, great. So I know you mentioned, essentially, that you're able to score the creative. So, as an advertiser, you'd be able to say, "Okay, I know that this creative is going to work well." It's going to resonate with my target audience because I've run it through software to say, "Hey, yes, thumbs up. This is good to go." How do we translate that into host-read ads? Because there isn't that preapproval process, or are the hosts creating ads and then running them through a preapproval process?

[00:16:58] Heather Osgood: How does that work?

[00:17:00] Korri Kolesa: So we can score host-read ads like we score a pre-produced ad. And it's going to give you insight. So we have a second-by-second engagement chart that tells you throughout the entire ad; this is when someone had a response saying that they found it energetic. This was a trustworthy component. And so, if you start to match that and map it back to what people are saying and how they're talking about it, you start getting insights. And maybe it's something like telling a podcast host, "When you speak in this style, but still your authentic voice, it resonates more. This is the kind of feedback that is really powerful for both the hosts and the copy that gets written for the ads.

[00:17:49] Korri Kolesa: Usually, the talking points, hopefully, aren't scripted. There's some breathing room in them, but like understanding what good call to action work for a brand. So that's the kind of information you get back. So it applies to the host-read side too. 

[00:18:03] Heather Osgood: So essentially, what you can do is take that copy, break it down, and then say, "Hey, we know this part really needs to be recorded verbatim because that's going to be the engaging piece. 

[00:18:17] Korri Kolesa: That's right. Or the memorable piece you're trying to get across. You know, it depends if you're a new brand and trying to establish what you do. Or a brand that people know, such as O'Reilly, and driving people to a store, et cetera. 

[00:18:32] Heather Osgood: At True Native Media, we work with so many hosts that are new to advertising, I wish we had like a Bootcamp we could send them through to learn how to create good host-read ads. I remember my early days in radio ad sales, and I sold the ad; now who writes it? And they're like, "Oh, you do." And I'm like, "Are you kidding me? I write the ad. I know nothing about writing ads."

[00:19:03] Korri Kolesa: I'm not a writer. I'm not a copywriter. 

[00:19:05] Heather Osgood: I'm a salesperson. But I feel like it's very similar to podcasting, right? It's like, "Oh, you're a good podcast host. That must mean you can create a really good ad. So here are some random talking points; just go for it. We'll see what happens." And so, how have you at Veritonic thought about how could we better equip hosts to create powerful ads that convert? 

[00:19:34] Korri Kolesa: Completely. I would generally say, in podcasting specifically, no matter what the ad format is, I think there's an increased awareness of the importance of the creative. Which I know sounds obvious, but for the last couple of years, the host-read format of talking about the personal endorsement of a product was kind of enough.

[00:19:58] Korri Kolesa: It was so brand new and performant. Now, we're getting to the point where we're like, "Okay, we can optimize, we can make things better." And that's where the analytics come in. So when I talk about Veritonic having been around a long time, I think the market is finally catching up.

[00:20:14] Korri Kolesa: I think the market's finally understanding, "Oh the creative, there's so much opportunity to do better, to express better, more effectively in an already performant medium using analytics, right." And being mindful of that is, is great. It's gonna make for better creative, it's gonna make for a better listener experience.

[00:20:33] Korri Kolesa: So, the advertiser's happy, and the listener's happy. In general, we've seen much more attention paid to the creative. It's not just, "Well, there's an ad spot. Here are some talking points, and read through them." But being thoughtful, right?

And interestingly, it just depends on the format. Some shows will create a light music bed behind the ad, which will sometimes identify subconsciously, "Oh, ad playing," and then you potentially tune out. It depends on how that's executed. And so, being thoughtful about all those different components and the context in which it's in. What works for a specific type of show changes case by case. 

[00:21:12] Heather Osgood: Sure. I find it so fascinating because I think, especially for podcasters. They are content creators, not marketers or ad salespeople. They don't understand all of these elements. Then what happens is the podcast host thinks back in their catalog of memories, and they're like, "Oh, this is what an ad should be. Like an ad should have a music bed, or I should say, "Here's our sponsor messages." And, of course, we need to make sure everyone knows that these are sponsored messages.

[00:21:52] Heather Osgood: We're not trying to fool anyone or break any laws, but the minute you say, "Oh, we're headed to a sponsor break" or, you know, "Let me tell you about our advertiser of the day," or do things like the music beds, those are all cues for people to skip and either they fast forward, or they mentally check out. And that is not good. So we want that engagement. 

[00:22:14] Korri Kolesa: That's right. And I think that the podcast format gives you such great engagement. It's just the nature of audio. Host-read ads have so much performance because of the listener's relationship with who's speaking. And that carries so much weight, like to your point about keeping it conversational. I mean, that's what's driving so much of that great resonance. Then once we've established those two great things, you start to get smarter about the types of things you're saying and the way you're saying them; you just continue to level up. So I, I mean, that part of it is, is what I find exciting, cuz we've done so much in the space and there's still so much to optimize for. And that's where the analytics come in, which I'm excited about.

[00:23:06] Heather Osgood: Yeah. Oh gosh, just talking to you about it gets me excited because I just think that there are so many opportunities. We have these conversations with advertisers and agencies all day long, where it's like, well, it's not converting quite the way we had hoped. And then you go back to the show and you're like, so the ad isn't quite converting the way they had hoped. And what does that mean? 

[00:23:27] Korri Kolesa: What does that mean? What do I do with that? Right. 

[00:23:30] Heather Osgood: How do I fix it? And so that's right. Really being able to give a host very specific steps where you can say, okay, that part wasn't good, don't do that again. Or, do these things right, which will change performance. So I think that would be terrific.

[00:23:44] Heather Osgood: You can provide that information to advertisers and an audio index report. But how could this information get out more? Is there a way for the whole industry to gain some knowledge from your work?

[00:24:11] Korri Kolesa: Yeah, we've got a couple of reports that are coming out in Q3 and Q4 this year; with thought leadership and best practices that we've seen based on all this data, we've crunched and working with people on all sides of the equation. And I would say that up until this year, the research predominantly went to our partners. But we've partnered with all the major audio platforms, for example, Odyssey. Odyssey does some great insight reports for which we provide the data and analytics. There are interesting learnings on what placements are more effective, is the pre-roll more effective than a mid-roll? Is 15-seconds better than 30-seconds? And everyone would assume the mid-rolls are better, but it depends on your goals. It depends on if it's a new product.

[00:25:01] Korri Kolesa: Is it a product you can sell in 15-seconds to get engagement? Because we found through this Odyssey report or white paper that depending again on the product, if it's too long, you'll start to lose people. And then it's not effective at all. So you need to be thoughtful about what you want to do, what brand you're talking about, and who you're talking to. All of those insights are the things that the platform can give you. Maybe something's not converting, and a brand comes back and says it needed to convert better. So if you want an audience's insight, they tell you, you know what, this is why it's not converting. Maybe it's because there's a gap in the messaging, right? There's a piece of information that's just not connecting; that's the missing piece. These are the kind of bits and insights that you get doing that research on our platform.

[00:25:51] Heather Osgood: Awesome. Well, I am excited. I'll have to look up that Odyssey report. Still, I'm excited to see reports that you guys put out because I think that that would just be terrific to have more information. So let's talk a bit about conversion. I believe that brand advertisers and direct response advertisers are looking for conversion of some kind. And being able to understand that conversion is so important. So how does Veritonic measure that conversion? And I guess I'm curious if it's similar to like a Podsights or like a pixel-tracking. Can you talk to us about that? 

[00:26:32] Korri Kolesa: You bet. I would say we usually use conversion as what most advertisers want. They define conversions in different ways. So for some, it's making that sale. Other times, it's driving people to a specific website or a landing page and taking whatever action is significant. So conversion is defined by whatever the brand wants from an action perspective. We have a pixel-based attribution solution; thankfully, we now have dynamic ad insertion in podcasting. This allows for that tracking and gives advertisers insights into what ran and how it's performing. They can break down what source it's coming from and what is leading people to take action.

[00:27:13] Korri Kolesa: We use the same pixel-based technology on the attribution side for our brand lifts. It is interesting because you start to get into a world where you can evaluate the whole funnel of a customer's journey. So it's not only when they're taking action, but maybe they're two steps away from converting. They've had a really positive engagement with the brand that's lasting and going to help purchase intent. So that's impactful by making sure that you're thinking about the brand impact, not just at that final stage, but as a brand is building towards whatever action they're trying to get a consumer to take.

[00:27:48] Korri Kolesa: You must have the same pixel that can track all of the brand lift. Now you can get people that have organically heard the ad, so you're not doing a lookalike audience, but you're pulling people in for brand lift engagement who are your natural listeners, which is really powerful. It gives you excellent insights throughout that entire funnel. 

[00:28:11] Heather Osgood: Yeah, that sounds really interesting because I agree that the end goal is always conversion, whatever it may look like. It is different from advertiser to advertiser, but what are the steps they're taking to that conversion?

[00:28:24] Heather Osgood: One thing that frustrates me sometimes is when advertisers say, "The ad's been running for a week. We're just not seeing what we need." And I think, "These are people who have never heard of your product before. And you think they will run out tomorrow and buy it because they heard one ad or even a couple of ads." It takes steps for people to purchase products. It depends on the type of product or the price of the product that someone is selling. So all of those pieces play into a customer's whole conversion and that customer's journey.

[00:29:03] Heather Osgood: It doesn't go from zero to the finish line. There are so many steps in between, so it sounds like you can track those steps. Would you say that it's mostly just through watching someone's behavior on a website, or how can you monitor that and see it?

[00:29:25] Korri Kolesa: So the pixel-based tracking will know if, obviously, someone's come from an audio ad that we're tracking to a site that we're also tracking. On the brand side, if we're doing a brand lift study, it's understanding in a greater context what that impact is. How that resonated, even if the person didn't take action, to your point, right there in that seven-day window. Are they likelier to take that activity two or three weeks from now? And understanding that so you can have "attribution" that's not just within that fixed timeframe. So it's important to think about things as cumulative.

[00:30:05] Korri Kolesa: It's also not always one-to-one. So what might convert really well for one audience for that particular product might have to be a slightly different conversation opportunity and offer to convert with another audience. So be mindful and get data, so you be smarter about how that creative comes together because not all audiences are created equal. They're not all gonna perform the same. And so that is, I think, important. It's not just, "I put an ad up, and everyone's gonna convert in a week."

[00:30:36] Heather Osgood: So let's just say you have a software product and advertise on streaming audio, podcasts, and terrestrial radio. Obviously, their target audience will be the same from platform to platform. One of the questions I have is, how many podcast listeners can only be reached in podcasts? Do you find that the audiences are totally different, or is there crossover? If somebody listened to the ad on a podcast and heard it on streaming and then the radio. Have you guys been able to measure that and see those distinctive groups? 

[00:31:32] Korri Kolesa: Yeah, Veritonic doesn't measure those distinct types of audiences and overlap. From my own knowledge of the industry and things, I will say that you find crossover in streaming and podcasting, which is unsurprising. They are digital formats and on demand. That being said, as podcasting becomes more prolific, you will have more and more overlap in the audiences, which is a good thing. The more people listen to podcasts, the more likely you're gonna be able to reach them in all of those formats. 

[00:32:06] Heather Osgood: That's an excellent point. The higher the adoption rate of podcasting, the more you'll be able to reach that same person across platforms.

[00:32:21] Korri Kolesa: I don't know if it still holds; I assume it would, but podcast listeners were considered "the unreachable." But a consumer group that knows how to tune out ads in other formats is consuming content in formats that you can have ad-free experiences. And so, the fact that podcast ads are really organic and threaded throughout the content that's a way that brands can get in front of an audience they couldn't necessarily reach otherwise. As podcasting grows and you get more people listening, it becomes less about the unreachable but still a great format. But it was a good selling point for brands because it was a way that they could get to folks they couldn't get to otherwise.

[00:33:09] Heather Osgood: I know we need to start wrapping it up, but what do you think is on the horizon for podcast and podcast advertising in particular? 

[00:33:26] Korri Kolesa: I love seeing what big audio players are doing for the space supporting content creators. And when I say support, it's driven by economics. The financial support of content creators is great for the space. The better the content, the more listeners we will pull in the better content we can create for different audience segments. So that's, you know, what started out in a couple talk show format shows. 

[00:33:54] Korri Kolesa: And then sports networks became a thing, and true crime was a thing. Now you're starting to see the content types round out because money in the space helps that continued expansion. So I'm excited about that. I'm excited to see the content continue to expand, supporting different listener groups.

[00:34:13] Korri Kolesa: And then on the advertising side, thinking about audio converging instead of distinct silos. It's interesting the way that SXM is approaching it. They've got satellite, Pandora for streaming, and Stitcher for podcasting. Thinking about audio in 360 degrees and not very limited views will be powerful from a listener and brand perspective. 

[00:34:46] Heather Osgood: Do you think that technology like smart speakers will greatly impact audio? Or do you have any other kind of distinctive predictions for audio? 

[00:34:57] Korri Kolesa: I think the smart speaker phenomenon is interesting. It's another expression of how you engage with the audio. We get most of the benefit from it being audio in and of itself. And then, you know, you can nuance it depending on how it's delivered. If it's here through a speaker and how you engage with it, anytime there's more consumption of audio, the better.

[00:35:17] Korri Kolesa: I think that's how we attune our habits as listeners to enjoy audio with more options. The more brands that are in the space and understand how well it performs, the more will see an emphasis on the quality of the audio itself.

[00:35:40] Korri Kolesa: And that can be advertising and content. What is my creative strategy? For a long time, it's been second to; I'm participating in audio; at least I'm here. Now we're gonna optimize; we're gonna get better and smarter on the creative side regarding what we're delivering. So that part of it I'm really excited about 

[00:36:04] Heather Osgood: That is terrific. I really appreciate you sharing. So Korri, where can people connect with you?  

[00:36:15] Korri Kolesa: My email address is kkolesa@veritonic.com; you can also find me on LinkedIn and visit our website. 

[00:36:31] Heather Osgood: I'm so excited we had this conversation today because I definitely have learned a lot about Veritonic and the technology you guys are creating. And thank you for listening to this podcast. Head on over to truenativemedia.com and download our guide to podcast advertising.

[00:37:00] Heather Osgood: Thanks so much for listening, and we will catch you again next time.